meh spot with TPTK

[revolvingiris]

Villain and I had been battling it out. Probably just because we were the two bigger stacks. Villain is also a winning player I don't know a ton about.

I don't really know what is in his pf range but I guess its pretty wide. Post flop my best guess would be if villain flopped anything huge they would just call me down but I think my flop bet induced whatever action this is.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 22 Tournament, 150/300 Blinds 40 Ante (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB (t6197)
UTG (t10217)
MP (t3445)
CO (t19137)
Button (t13625)
Hero (SB) (t17752)

Hero's M: 25.73

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, A
2 folds, CO bets t775, 1 fold, Hero raises to t1800, 1 fold, CO calls t1025

Flop: (t4140) 2, A, 4 (2 players)
Hero bets t3150, CO raises to t8400, Hero ???

[drmcboy]

I'd call and check the turn, put the rest in on the river if he checks back.

If you aren't wanting to get all the money in now I would just call pre or check the flop as played and maybe he'll think you have a PP instead and you can hope he bluffs or v bets worse As himself.

But I think this is fine/good as long as you didn't fold.

[fjuanl]

Being OOP I would 3bet to 3x his raise. Here you didn't even go 2.5x. I think 3betting>flatting since its 6max and its a CO vs blinds spot

I'd try to go for ~1/2 pot all the way postflop. If your called with your sizing, your in a weird spot with about 1.5x pot on the turn, so any turn bet makes it obvious to villain that theres no fold equity.

I like calling the flop raise if the stacks were deep because its often a spot where villain has the nuts or total air. I'd put him on total air about 99% of the time here...he's repping only 22 and 44 and it would be pretty dumb to raise the cbet with Ax. Even though I think villain is bluffing just about always, I think its best to just shove because it should be obvious that your committed if you call the flop. Your stack will be 7.5k and the pot will be 20k. I don't see a huge problem with calling tho since you have backdoor outs and who knows, maybe he thinks you'll check/fold turns

Folding at any point is out the question for me, I'd be really happy about getting my stack in. I feel pretty good about the fact that villain is FOS and bluffing 99% of the time, especially considering you basically min-3bet him and he's never folding any of his range pre

[baudib]

I guess this is a meh spot only because you lost and he showed up with something retarded like A2, A4, 22, 44....3bet bigger preflop. this is a standard spot to try to get it in imo.

[revolvingiris]

I guess this is a meh spot only because you lost and he showed up with something retarded like A2, A4, 22, 44

its about range, not if I lost the hand or not. Just because villain may have showed up with one of those hands doesn't mean he wont with others.

If villain is also willing to call off with something retarded wouldn't I want to 3bet smaller pf for value (like I did)?

[baudib]

Hmmm, well I guess if you want to be able to fold TPTK, you can....I suppose stack sizes are a bit too big to 3-bet shove preflop but that's not a bad option...the truth is all hands and especially AKo are going to be less profitable out of the blinds, so taking it down preflop isn't a bad outcome.

[Sprayed]

I guess this is a meh spot only because you lost and he showed up with something retarded like A2, A4, 22, 44

its about range, not if I lost the hand or not. Just because villain may have showed up with one of those hands doesn't mean he wont with others.

If villain is also willing to call off with something retarded wouldn't I want to 3bet smaller pf for value (like I did)?

If they are willing to call 3bets with garbage, then you want to bet more not less.

[baudib]

+1

[revolvingiris]

I really didn't know what villain would or would not call with and where that threshold was or for how much. All I knew was A) I was ahead of villains betting range, B) I could probably take it down post flop and wasn't scared to 3bet with AK high, C) I still wanted villain to call pf but didn't really want him to fold as I would just lose value.

I think if I am going to raise villain to take it down pf then I would need some indication that he would stack off with worse than AK. If I am just raising to make villain fold then this situation can be done with ATC and the fact that I have AK is meaningless.

I know people are going to say if villain will call this raise then he would also call for a bigger price. Which may be true but I didn't know for sure.

[baudib]

what's your plan when he calls and you miss

[revolvingiris]

what's your plan when he calls and you miss

I guess it would depend on the texture of the board and how hard I thought it hit villains range. I would be cbetting for sure but I would have to think that villain would either float me or raise with almost his entire range. So I guess either cr or double barrel.

[drmcboy]

AK is meaningless.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

294,516,288 games 0.422 secs 697,905,895 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 72.579% 72.29% 00.29% 212909408 847168.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 27.421% 27.13% 00.29% 79912544 847168.00 { T9s }


---

904,096,512 games 0.922 secs 980,581,900 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 58.862% 45.85% 13.01% 414539472 117630000.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 41.138% 28.13% 13.01% 254297040 117630000.00 { AKs, AKo }


---

[baudib]

I keep referring to the original post and title, and your subsequent posts in this thread, and I can't figure out what it is you're even asking anymore.

[Sprayed]

If villain is also willing to call off with something retarded wouldn't I want to 3bet smaller pf for value (like I did)?

Hey man you said it. It is also standard to raise more than 3x when oop but whatever. I would like a smooth call more if you are trying to be tricky.

[Extremophile]

I guess drmcboy wants us to put the villian on a range :

a) Villian's range with AQ:

Board: As 2s 4h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.909% 33.14% 09.76% 10500 3093.50 { AdKs }
Hand 1: 57.091% 47.33% 09.76% 14993 3093.50 { 44, 22, AQs+, A4s, A2s, AQo+, A4o, A2o }


b) Villian's range without AQ:

Board: As 2s 4h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.909% 33.14% 09.76% 10500 3093.50 { AdKs }
Hand 1: 57.091% 47.33% 09.76% 14993 3093.50 { 44, 22, AQs+, A4s, A2s, AQo+, A4o, A2o }

c) Villian's range without A2 and A4 but including AQ:

Board: As 2s 4h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.061% 37.09% 14.97% 7343 2965.00 { AdKs }
Hand 1: 47.939% 32.96% 14.97% 6527 2965.00 { 44, 22, AQs+, AQo+ }

d) Villian's range without A2,A4, or AQ:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 29.011% 04.96% 24.05% 589 2857.50 { AdKs }
Hand 1: 70.989% 46.94% 24.05% 5576 2857.50 { 44, 22, AKs, AKo }

e) Suited connectors added:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 78.468% 75.27% 03.20% 81219 3455.50 { AdKs }
Hand 1: 21.532% 18.33% 03.20% 19780 3455.50 { 44, 22, AQs+, A4s, A2s, KsQs, KJs-K9s, Q8s+, J8s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo+ }


I don't know if any of these is close but, I put the villian on range a) and shove the flop.

By the way 22 or 44 isn't crap since he is getting the right implied odds. In case of A2 or A4, you already won preflop:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ter-t1301.html

[baudib]

so he'd call a 3bet with A2, but wouldn't raise AJ on this board? c'mon

I'd expect villain to show up with AJ- a lot here, more often than AK (he'd just 4-bet shove pre) and don't discount seeing something massively retarded here like 55 or JJ once in a while.

[Penneywize]

so he'd call a 3bet with A2, but wouldn't raise AJ on this board? c'mon

I'd expect villain to show up with AJ- a lot here, more often than AK (he'd just 4-bet shove pre) and don't discount seeing something massively retarded here like 55 or JJ once in a while.

This is basically my thinking on this hand. Either way, villain's PF/flop line is very weird if we explicitly try to assign a range that beats us post.

I am calling and reevaluating turn.

[fjuanl]

AKo is not a hand that crushes even a wide calling range. A lot of the value from 3betting here is actually the fold equity you have preflop. Plus we don't exactly want to play pots OOP.

AKo: 58%
Top 15% of hands: 42%

T9s: 38%
Top 15% of hands: 62%

You might induce him to call with worse hands by 3betting small, but 58% is not enough of an edge where you want to invite people to see flops when you'll be OOP

[revolvingiris]

I keep referring to the original post and title, and your subsequent posts in this thread, and I can't figure out what it is you're even asking anymore.

Just generating conversation. I was experimenting with 3betting lighter kind of like the 2.5x pf raise which is slowly turning into the 2x. I guess it was a value-3bet pf OOP?

I think the point DRMC made is pretty interesting. I also agree with Sprayed where I think a smooth call would have basically accomplished the same thing.

AKo: 58%
Top 15% of hands: 42%

T9s: 38%
Top 15% of hands: 62%

Is this just AK vs the range you put villain on? Pre? Post?

[fjuanl]

Just a hypothetical range for calling your small 3bet preflop. I'm not saying I think he's on top 15% of hands, just wanted to point out that AK is not a hand that crushes ranges