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30 BB is the new 10 BB

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  1. #1

    Default 30 BB is the new 10 BB

    Wildly loose aggressive play is the new standard for most MTT players these days. Half the table rolling the dice going all-in before the flop with any two cards. Even happened at the WSOP this year, to the extent that pros were quoted complaining about it in a Chicago Tribune article. And if it happens there, you know it's happening more and more at small stakes online MTTs.

    Soupie mentions this scenario in one of his strategy articles on this site (all excellent, by the way). His plan is to "join the party" with his best hands: AK, AQ, and middle pairs and up. I'm not sure about middle pairs here. If there are 5-6 people in the pot, the odds of *someone* pairing up their A, K, or Q are pretty high. If I'm gonna play this way, I'd rather roll the dice with AJ or AT than 88. But in any case, the real problem is we're still only talking 10% or less of all hands. You and me and soupie will still be folding the first 4-5 hands the majority of the time.

    And that leaves us in a challenging situation. Because we may lose 2/3 of the field in the first 4-5 hands. The wild gamblers who lost are gone. The wild gamblers who won have tripled or quadrupled through or more, and they are satisfied for the time being. Now it's too late to "join the party", because you won't get the same number of callers that there were the first few hands. So we are stuck with a stack 1/3 the size of most of the rest of the remaining field.

    I am posting to discuss strategy for this situation. For a little while you can try to play your normal style. If it works, great, everything is back to normal. But if you don't start winning pots soon, you will find yourself short-stacked and losing ground quickly. The question is, when do you change strategy, and what should your new strategy be?

    In my experience, it is time for a change when your stack shrinks to less than 30 BB. That doesn't sound like an emergency situation, but consider your options. When big stacks can easily raise any pot 3-5 BB before the flop, can you still afford to call with your suited connectors in the hope that the flop hits you? Can you make your standard 3 BB preflop raise with a strong hand and your standard big continuation bet on the flop even if it doesn't hit you? With a 30 BB stack, are you willing to give away all those chips if you get raised? How many times?

    My answer to those questions is no, no, and no. These days you just can't play "normal" poker with 30 BB short-stacked in an MTT. That's why I called this post "30 BB is the new 10 BB." In my opinion, with 30 BB it's already time to shove or fold before the flop every hand.

    The good part is, with 30 BB you can afford to be more selective than you are with 10 BB. I get very tight with a 15-30 BB short stack. I go all-in with AK and pairs TT and up, and fold everything else. Against a table of good poker players, this strategy would be suicidal. In today's MTTs, this strategy is profitable.

    Big stacks simply hate to fold to short stacks in this situation. They are loose, aggressive, lucky this tournament, and they just aren't very good poker players. They think KJ is a strong hand. And they will call short stacks with weaker stuff than that.

    TT is a good example to break down the odds with. Yes, you will lose if anyone has JJ or better. Dem's da breaks. But you will also get called with AT all the time. You will get called with KT some of the time. Already you are almost breaking even on this play. But I guarantee you people will call with K9 too. And with QT. And even with K8 and Q9 and Q8. The face cards are so pretty, and hey, those are straight draws, right? And there's always the guy who will call you with any ace. My TT is heads-up with one caller and ahead more than twice as often as it is behind. Of course there will be plenty of toss-ups against two overcards. You got to take your chances in MTTs.

    In a 90-100 player MTT, I can post and fold down to 30 BB, double or triple through just once with AK, TT or better, and I am probably at the final table in the money already. And this is in a bad tournament where I am not catching any breaks with cards, flops or pots. Just double up once at the right time, and the bad tournament becomes a money tournament.

    On a really bad day I will go down below 15 BB without seeing any of those big hands I like to shove with. Now I have to loosen up a little and shove 99, 88, AQ, AJ, and AT as well. Worst-case scenario, I'm stuck at 10 BB or less. Now almost anything goes. Well, still not quite anything: just any ace, pairs 55 or better, and kings K9 and up. If I can't even land one of those hands, I am fine being blinded away to the very end and see if I get lucky with a random hand or two at the end to keep me alive. Amazing how many other people will bust out during that time, moving me up in the money.

    I don't like playing poker this way. I much prefer to win a big pot early, and bet aggressively before and on the flop like annette15, or play cleverly after the flop like soupie, or steal pots with 74 offsuit like rippy. But if that doesn't happen, I like to give myself another chance and another way to get into the money. And I find fold or shove big hands at 30 BB pays off nicely against today's breed of aggressive, loose, and not very good poker player in MTTs. Remember, there's nothing the good players at the table can do to prevent the bad players from calling your big hand shoves with poor hands.

    rokirovka
  2. #2
    So basically you want to go into push fold mode with a 30bb stack. I can tell you for sure you are losing a lot value on a ton of spots.
  3. #3
    Yea, sadly this sounds wrong, yet it seems to be so true. Good write up if you ask me and good insight to some who maybe havent looked at things from this prospective yet.
    back looking to make some moolah
  4. #4
    Not surprised you can win like this, people will call down with anything.
    But I think revolvingiris is right with this one, this is far from optimal strategy.
    (Josh)
  5. #5
    Not quite disagreeing with you, I think too often we feel safe and secure with 30 BBs and miss spots to pick up chips because we're a "big stack." The truth is even "big stacks" in most tournaments are never more than 1 misstep from disaster.

    no, you can't really play postflop poker with 30 BBs, sometimes you have to do really risky things simply because the pot is too big to give up on when you whiff.

    I think the adage that "you can't win a tourney in the first hour, but you can lose it" is fatally flawed -- putting your tournament life on the line is no big deal, because frankly your tournament life isn't worth that much early on.

    You don't call and check-fold with suited connectors against loose big stacks, you resteal against them.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  6. #6
    Interesting scenario you bring up, suited connectors against loose big stacks. Let's say you have a 25 BB stack and you get 78s in the blinds. A loose big stack tries to steal with a 5 BB raise. You want to resteal? With how big a reraise? If it's another 5 BB, you just committed 40% of your stack to a hand where you're holding 78s. Now the loose big stack calls you, 10 BB is nothing to him. You reraise all-in, he still calls you, 25 BB is not too much for him either and he probably thinks his mediocre hand is good. And heads-up against 78s, unfortunately it actually is good.

    What is the loose big stack holding? I wouldn't be surprised if it's any two overcards (he thinks Q9 is a good hand). It's even worse if it's one overcard and a 7 or 8. If you're very lucky he might have A5 or something. But a lot more of his stealing and calling hands will be ahead of 78 than even with 78, and none of them will be behind 78, before the flop. You still want 40-100% of your chips committed to this situation, on the unlikely hope that the flop gives you a straight or flush draw?

    That's why I think the resteal with suited connectors against a loose big stack is a bad play with a stack under 30 BB. I would rather let them steal, and sit and wait until I hit a better hand. So I'm down to a 17 BB stack and hit my TT and now I'm beating his Q9. Even if I'm only "treading water" by winning back barely more than I lost while I sat and waited, I'm still closer to the money because of all the people who have busted out during that time. If your 78s doesn't hit the flop, you gave away a lot of chips in one hand that I gave away more slowly.

    Once again, I know this is the most boring lamest poker strategy on earth. I could write a computer program to play MTT poker this way. But I also find it somewhat amusing to sit back and make the money with an absolutely stress-free strategy of more or less post fold then push fold.

    One last point: I do pay attention to the table while I'm doing this. If I'm holding JJ with 25 BB in late position and my plan is to push, but I see a big raise and then a big reraise that are out of line with the usual pattern of previous hands at the table, I fold that JJ real quick. Sure enough, last time this happened the reraiser was holding KK.

    rokirovka
  7. #7
    yes, you can afford to raise/fold with 30 BBs. Yes, yes, yes.

    I wish there were a lot of tourneys where the small stacks have 30BBs and the big stacks have 100+, but that is not the case after the first 30 minutes. this is a great strat for beginners in quality tournies.

    ~15 BBs is a time to play tight and look for re steals. But not stealing blinds with 30 BBs is just bad play. There are of course some tables where you have nothing but stations but that is in no way the norm. And I would still rather take flops with them IP rather than just mash the shove button. If they are calling off 30 BBs with Q9, they'll probably call 3 with ATC and if you can't beat someone playing ATC OOP I guess open shoving 30BBs is your best bet. And again, the table won't be full of these big stacks, the structure prevents it. There will be plenty of medium stacks to steal from and c bet against.

    I'd suggest playing some low limit cash to get some flop experience.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by rokirovka
    Interesting scenario you bring up, suited connectors against loose big stacks. Let's say you have a 25 BB stack and you get 78s in the blinds. A loose big stack tries to steal with a 5 BB raise. You want to resteal? With how big a reraise? If it's another 5 BB, you just committed 40% of your stack to a hand where you're holding 78s. Now the loose big stack calls you, 10 BB is nothing to him. You reraise all-in, he still calls you, 25 BB is not too much for him either and he probably thinks his mediocre hand is good. And heads-up against 78s, unfortunately it actually is good.
    Shove over the big stacks 5 bb raise. However, if the big stack is going to call like always then you shouldn't really be re-stealing from this player anyways.
  9. #9
    5bb raise steals?
  10. #10
    dr of course you can play "postflop" poker and steal with 30 BBs and should, but if OP is referring to a cash game style, 100-200 BBs deep game then, no. Of course this makes decisions a lot easier as we are never folding TPTK when we get check-raised on a two-flush board after cbetting 20% of our stack, but that's slightly different than what I thought OP had in mind.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    Can you make your standard 3 BB preflop raise with a strong hand and your standard big continuation bet on the flop even if it doesn't hit you? With a 30 BB stack, are you willing to give away all those chips if you get raised? How many times?

    My answer to those questions is no, no, and no.
    Not sure where 100-200 BB comes from. Near as I can tell this is the focus of OP's strategy and I just can't get behind it.

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