Yay 2 3bet pots

[minSim]

Villain thinks about 3 seconds before his river shove.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($14.50)
BB ($131)
UTG ($78.65)
MP ($18.90)
CO ($41.20)
Hero (Button) ($68.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, A
2 folds, CO bets $2, Hero raises to $6, 2 folds, CO calls $4

Flop: ($12.75) 9, 7, A (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $7.50, CO calls $7.50

Turn: ($27.75) 4 (2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks

River: ($27.75) 8 (2 players)
CO bets $27.70 (All-In)

hand 2
Villain 23/21/70(AFreq), 3bet total of 8%, he only 3bets from the blinds over 72h. Steal 44, cbet 100.

Pre and flop standard or is anyone raising somewhere?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($88.60)
Hero (CO) ($51.80)
Button ($24.05)
SB ($22.30)
BB ($61.95)
UTG ($13.25)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, J
2 folds, Hero bets $2, 2 folds, BB raises to $7, Hero calls $5

Flop: ($14.25) 10, 9, 6 (2 players)
BB bets $7.50, Hero calls $7.50

[Carroters]

I don't really like preflop in either hand.

1. I'd rather 3-bet a hand that's more playable and less dominated by his continuing range as a bluff here. He's opening tons so plenty better spots will come along to 3-bet bluff here. Post flop we're just never happy after he calls our c-bet so I'd be more inclinded to 3-bet 98o here than A5.

I fold the river. The only thing he's getting to the river with that needs to bluff here is some oop float. I think most of the hands he gets to this river with don't get turned into bluffs since they have a fair amount of sd value vs your range. I think this is probably AJ AQ JTs 98s and shit like that fairly often.

2. The defend seems a little bit light since again we're dominated by a lot of his value range. If I wanted to play back here I'd rather just 4-bet since we have a blocker to AK/KK and have some shitty reverse implied odds post flop.

I think as played floating is better than raising since I doubt he barrels too many turn cards lightly on this board since you have plenty stuff in your range that just isn't folding.

[surviva316]

hand 1: i'm fine with PF depending on reads (which aren't given). A5o is def better than 98o due to blockers.

check behind flop? as played i agree with carroters (again depending on reads. there are some fish who are terrible enough for this to be a call, but preflop is likely bad against these fish)

hand 2: PF, if villain's range is properly balanced between value and bluffs, then KJo should play about the same as AJo, so i don't completely agree wtih you carroters. i imagine flatting and 4b'ing are both +EV but flatting seems better for shania.

i agree that floating seems vastly superior here. maybe at higher limits where balance matters a lot more in 3b pots raising will be good because your value range is a lot bigger than you're bluffing range, but meh, w/e. he's basically only going to barrel on an A or K turn (which is fine given our hand) or when a BDFD picks up outs, so floating is a lot cheaper and almost as effective as raising the flop.

[Dragon Slayer]

Hand 1- I like the light 3 bet bluff. Im not sure if I would fire this flop or not. I think vil would expect us to do so a high % of the time. So we might get called by worse. But w/e. I think Turn Ckeck is fine and river is a fold.
Hand 2-Why are we calling here? Or hand sucks, and will get us in a lot of bad situations post oop. If your calling because you feel he is 3 betting you light has this been going on at the table? Is there history there? Id prob 4 bet my junk and call wit a stronger range. KJs maybe will still suck oop imo.

[Pelion]

Hand 1: Im assuming you had some reads for this hand which you didnt post. Probably fold preflop. There are some players that a 3bet is good against but I dont love A5o. Id check back the flop pretty much always since no worse hand calls and no better hand folds. The river is a really easy fold. He has a set/2pair/TPGK pretty much always.

Hand 2: Standard would be to fold preflop to the 3bet, and I think KJo is weak enough, and plays badly enough, that id rather 4bet bluff than call (although Id just fold vs this guy). As played a float is good since he will give up on a lot of low cards with better hands, and barrel a K or J fairly often with worse. Expect to run into AK/AJ/KQ and better pretty often though.

[meeloche]

I would start by checking the flop in hand 1 river's probably a fold.

I'd just fold flop in 2 usually, floating sometimes is fine if you have some more reads than just a 70 hand sample.

[minSim]

When we check the flop our hand is face up as 9x - bad A.
Usually villain is either gonna c/f the turn, or betting turn and river.
I’m not confident in calling 2 streets when it’s so easy to valuetown me.

Pro of checking behind is villain can pick up some draw that makes him bet turn, c/f river or c/c turn. Another pro is he might bet the turn with QQ/JJ and check river.
Con of checking behind is villain get’s another card. That’s a pro for me when I’m behind a better A and hit my 2P, but that’s not gonna happen often.
Another con is I don’t get value from a flopped something.

Basically when I check behind and villain checks turn I can bet small and hope villain hero calls or picked up a draw that he didn’t bet.
When villain bets I have to call and hope he doesn’t bluff the river.


When I’m cbetting the flop I get calls from flopped stuff and a lot of folds. I don’t mind folds because they’re very likely not putting any money in against my flop check behind range anyway.

Pros of betting are I get some value, easy decisions, no free cards and rarely bluffed of my hand.
Cons of betting are that I’m bluffing most of the time and I can’t draw out on a better A.


So the only differences I see between cbetting and checking behind is that a cbet is not giving a free card and a check behind might give villain some draw on the turn that puts more money in. That’s at the risk of giving a free card and risking to get bluffed of.

[Pelion]

Wtf is "flopped stuff" on this board? When you check you get value really often from TT-KK on the turn and often on the river as well. I really dont understand the logic of "I dont want to call a bet so Ill bet it myself". He is never folding a better hand here.

Also, since you still havnt posted any stats or reads, and hes only an 80bb stack im thinking the 3bet was probably pretty bad.

[speedcake]

IMO, both hands are pretty terrible. No real reads given for hand 1 and A5o is pretty garbage for 3betting pre normally, much less without reads.

Hand 2, are you really going to be comfortable with a TP type hand in this spot? Too few hands, no solid reads and a hand that is going to get you into alot of trouble postflop in 3bet spots. I think I'd just be 4betting pre or dumping this. The flop float seems gross as well.

[griffey24]

Hand 1 - I agree with ppl saying that 3betting A5o is pretty garbage. As for the flop bet, I don't mind it. It all depends on what level villain will be on, and the fact is that most ppl will perceive a check back on this flop as "never having air" and "pot controlling".. whereas a bet here can be for value or a bluff. You have to know what level villain will be on though.

Hand 2 - meh fold pre

[Ash256]

Hand 1: If villain's PFR >20 how is 3betting here not superstandard? I'd opine that BTN vs. CO is a more profitable spot to 3bet than BB vs. BTN. If vill is oop floating in order to c/r bluff turn all in, congrats to him, however I don't think he's doing it nearly enough to justify a call.

Hand 2: I'd 4bet or dump pre, normally dump and wait for a better 4bet spot.

[minSim]

Also, since you still havnt posted any stats or reads, and hes only an 80bb stack im thinking the 3bet was probably pretty bad.

I'm not really interested in a preflop debate, but I'll think of the points given in this thread. A5o is a garbage hand, but my thinking is mostly that CO vs BTN about any hand is profitable to 3bet when CO and me are unkown to eachother and A5o isn't the end of the world against a 3bet calling range when I'm ip?

Wtf is "flopped stuff" on this board? When you check you get value really often from TT-KK on the turn and often on the river as well. I really dont understand the logic of "I dont want to call a bet so Ill bet it myself". He is never folding a better hand here.

I assume an unknown to 4bet QQ/KK pre most of the time. JJ sometimes, TT not.

The flopped stuff is T9s, J9s, 98s, gutters.

You could help if you point out the most likely scenario your think that happens when villain has TT-KK and how you handle it.
Do you assume villain c/c's those hands 1 or 2 streets? Are you calling bets for 1 or 2 streets?

[Pelion]

The flopped stuff is T9s, J9s, 98s, gutters.

You never get more than 2 streets of value from this stuff, and you rarely get more than 1. Delay your value by one street and youre more likely to get it.

You could help if you point out the most likely scenario your think that happens when villain has TT-KK and how you handle it.
Do you assume villain c/c's those hands 1 or 2 streets? Are you calling bets for 1 or 2 streets?

I can assume very little when hes a total unknown. But against an 80bb stack Id look for probably one street of value. If he checks the turn Id bet and probably look to check behind the river. If he bets Id call one street and depending on sizing/timing id likely fold to a river barrel. With some reads its possible to play these hands for 2 streets of value after a flop check, but with these stack sizes against an unknown It wouldnt surprise me if he check/shoved somewhere.

TT-KK is either going to bet, or going to call a bet on the turn a LOT though.

As to A5o preflop, hot and cold the equity isnt too bad but our hand plays so badly that its going to be really hard to play almost any board well even with position against anyone who isnt really passive.

[nutsinho]

hmm a 80bb fish open raises 4x from the CO. yea i think ill just muck AJ and KQ. probably also pass on A5. as played check flop, as played turn is close, fold river

2nd hand now we are the donk raising to 4x from the CO? fold preflop and fold flop without postflop reads

[minSim]

Yeah I'm gone from 4xing from everywhere already. I experimented with it combined with nitting up my opening ranges but I don't like it.

Interesting first line nuts.

I've learned some stuff in this thread, thanks all.

[Pelion]

2nd hand now we are the donk raising to 4x from the CO? fold preflop and fold flop without postflop reads

Whats donkish about 4x? (serious question). I tend to raise to 4x until I have enough hands (20ish) to know that the players after me are tight. I figure I build a pot against unknowns who are fairly likely to be loose players when they call (since tight players fold a lot). Once I know the players after me are tight Ill drop my sizing down with my entire range since stealing becomes more important, and smaller raises give better odds when I have crap, and more action when I have AA. Is this not good?

[minSim]

At least it's donkish when I have 23/21 8%3bet sitting in the blinds and generally so when people are not call happy, as is very often in todays games.

Also there are lots of factors that influence or get influenced by preflop betsizing a little. Maybe it doesn't matter that much, maybe it does. My results have basically shown a 3x raise to be best for me, especially when opening a ton from late position.

[Pelion]

At least it's donkish when I have 23/21 8%3bet sitting in the blinds and generally so when people are not call happy, as is very often in todays games.

Yeah that I agree with. Nutsinhos post made it sound like it was just plain donkish whatever though.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Versus anyone who is opening 4x preflop its highly likely I'm not 3betting them preflop without value.

Hand 1: As played I'd fold and I think you played it fine.

Hand 2: Fold preflop obvvvvvvvv.