Why the donk is close to the great player

[Nakamura]

I've recently come across two hands that very nicely illustrate why the line between being a donk and a truly great player is often closer than we would like. In fact, the donk and one of the game's greats will often end up making the same decision, but this stems from a very different thought patterns.

Hand 1

Read - Villain is decent and knows he should push fairly wide.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 12 Tournament, 300/600 Blinds (4 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t3440)
Button (t3215)
SB (t4230)
Hero (BB) (t2615)

Hero's M: 2.91

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7, K
2 folds, SB bets t4230 (All-In), Hero ??

Thought processes

Donk player - "Wow, I have a K ... it's suited too. That's quite good and he might be donking off his stack with something like T8o. I think I call"
Good player - "Well K7s, that looks fairly decent. But it's the bubble and I should be tight, right? After all bubbling is terrible, K7s just isn't enough, I fold."
Great player - "If I was in that spot I'd be pushing every hand. He seems decent enough to be pushing over 80% of hands. Even though it's the bubble, K7s looks good enough against a random hand. I call.


Hand 2

Read - Villain is at 16/11 seems solid.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 12 Tournament, 200/400 Blinds (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP (t631)
CO (t3090)
Button (t2100)
Hero (SB) (t2473)
BB (t2244)
UTG (t2962)

Hero's M: 4.12

Preflop: Hero is SB with 10, 8
4 folds, Hero bets t2473 (All-In), BB calls t1844 with Q, 9

Hero has an apparently simple push, however, had he known the villain would call with Q9o, he should fold PF.

Thought processes (of the caller)

Donk player - "This donk stole my blind last orbit. Hey, Q9o isn't that bad. It's kinda connected and almost two face cards. Stuff you, I call you donk .... steal my blind pfffft."
Good player - Hmm, this guy stole my blind last round. Damn, I've only got Q9o. "That's like only just above average. His range is probably wide here, but calling with Q9o is probably a bit marginal. I fold"
Great player - "This guy's range is probably ATC. Q9o looks a bit like the nuts. With those blinds as well, I think I'm ahead enough here to call, I call.

In case you were wondering which category this player fitted into, here is the dialogue after the hand.

BB: idiot
Hero: hero
BB: ur so good
BB: and smart

[taipan168]

Nice examples. I'm coming to the belief that the more I get abused by donks at the table, the better player I must be.

[RockyMoose]

Did you run these hands in one of the SNG programs? At first glance, I'm only "good" enough to fold, for exactly the reasons you stated.

[Nakamura]

Did you run these hands in one of the SNG programs? At first glance, I'm only "good" enough to fold, for exactly the reasons you stated.

Yeah, hand 1 is a call if opp pushes more than 70% of hands, which he should if he's any good. Of course, I snap-called and then thought, "why am I such a donk?". That kind of lead to the thought process that a donk's snap-call and a v. good player's snap-call aren't a million miles apart.

I can't remember the what our exact pushing range needs to be in hand 2, something like 65% or so for him to be able to call.

[baudib]

I admit I'm too nitty in calling.

nak, do you get a good read on calling ranges when you multitable?

[Nakamura]

I'll admit the second hand is a tough call.

I use VPIP/PFR as an indication of calling ranges, which is further backed up by calling stats for the SB and BB. It gives a quick indication which way players swing.

This logic underpins my preference to play at Stars and Tilt, the home of weak-tight players. Put it this way, it's a lot easier to make money from players who fold too much compared to players who call too much.

[linaker]

Interesting post. But isn't a donk thinking about what the opponent might have giving too much credit?

Donk player - "Wow, I have a K ... it's suited too. That's quite good and he might be donking off his stack with something like T8o. I think I call"

I suggest: Wow, I have a K ... thats only losing to an Ace or pocket pair. And its suited, so I have a good chance of making a flush. And if not, I will probably have at least top pair and if the worst comes to the worst I could win with just King high!! Where's the call button....

[Nakamura]

Interesting post. But isn't a donk thinking about what the opponent might have giving too much credit?

Totally . Most probably aren't thinking beyond their own cards here, but let's imagine he's a better breed of mule.

[Jack Sawyer]

I admit I'm too nitty in calling.

I used to be like that. Operative keywords being "used to be".

[TLR]

Nice post.

This is all true assuming villian in both cases is an ABC type player

[RockyMoose]

Put it this way, it's a lot easier to make money from players who fold too much compared to players who call too much.

I've been pondering this thread lately. Sklansky likes to write about situations where it is mathematically profitable to do x in situation y, yet it is sometimes more profitable to give up this small edge in order to do z at a later point. (That later point is often the next street, but it could be the next hand.)

And yes, we often talk about giving up small edges in order to have a bigger edge later.

So I'm trying to figure out the math of giving up a small edge. In this spot you say we should be open-shoving 70% of our hands. What range do we need to call a villain's shove? What range are villains actually calling our shoves? Isn't the difference profitable? I'm looking for some math that shows it's more profitable to fold these marginally profitable spots if we know that villains are too tight and will fold to our subsequent shoves.

(Just to clarify: I'm suggesting folding instead of calling, not folding instead of shoving!)