1st hand in $10 / 27-man - QQ at UTG gets 3bet pre

[Extremophile]

First hand in the tourney. This is an easy shove for me but I am wondering how you play this.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 11 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t1500)
SB (t1500)
BB (t1500)
Hero (UTG) (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Hero's M: 50.00

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q
Hero bets t80, 1 fold, MP1 raises to t220,

Hero?

[djh860]

Its not an easy shove for me. I almost never come over the top with QQ. I just call on the theory that I'm the best player at the table and I need time for my edge to build my chip stack. I call the reraise and play the flop

[Fielmann]

While I can see a case for calling, I really prefer shove. We're only afraid of AA, KK, and that's not the major part of villain's range. I play the $11s myself and in the early levels I see people 3betting KQ or 99 type of crap all the time.
The problem with playing the flop is that (apart from spiking the third Q) there is hardly a flop we like. Flops with overcard will probably lead to quick fold and flops without overcards make our situation only marginally better. Our of position we're very likely to lose a big pot against AA, KK and win a relatively small pot against hands we beat.
You can be the best player at the table, but playing a difficult flop in a 3-bet pot out of position still sucks.

[FlyingSaucy]

I agree it's not an easy shove, in fact I prefer a fold to a shove. As always it comes down to knowing your opponent. Most SNGers will only be 3betting an utg raise with prems. I'd say at best you're up against ak. Post flop if you call means you better be sure he'll play weak if you you have any equity at all calling the 3bet.

[taipan168]

Reads are really important here. If your read is that MP1 is a tight regular at best I would flat. If they are LAGGtards then I shove over. Without a read I could go either way, if I'm flatting I'm getting it in on a non A/K flop (and if they have AA or KK I pay them).

[danoxford]

While I can see a case for calling, I really prefer shove. We're only afraid of AA, KK, and that's not the major part of villain's range. I play the $11s myself and in the early levels I see people 3betting KQ or 99 type of crap all the time.
The problem with playing the flop is that (apart from spiking the third Q) there is hardly a flop we like. Flops with overcard will probably lead to quick fold and flops without overcards make our situation only marginally better. Our of position we're very likely to lose a big pot against AA, KK and win a relatively small pot against hands we beat.
You can be the best player at the table, but playing a difficult flop in a 3-bet pot out of position still sucks.

^ This. I would rather fold than call here, but I'd lean towards a shove although marginal.

[taipan168]

Wow, I can't believe how tight you guys are to fold QQ in this spot! TT would be a pretty definite fold, JJ may be a fold, but QQ? Even against a tight range we should surely at least still see a flop shouldn't we?

[SMRZ]

Pokerstars= Shove. There is all kind of light 3-betting/ light UTG raise going on early on the american sites.

If it was a site not accessible by American players = Fold. 3 betting still means something

[taipan168]

Pokerstars= Shove. There is all kind of light 3-betting/ light UTG raise going on early on the american sites.

If it was a site not accessible by American players = Fold. 3 betting still means something

I don't think that you can make broad generalisations about American players being loose and non-American players being tight.

[SMRZ]

Pokerstars= Shove. There is all kind of light 3-betting/ light UTG raise going on early on the american sites.

If it was a site not accessible by American players = Fold. 3 betting still means something

I don't think that you can make broad generalisations about American players being loose and non-American players being tight.

I should have probably explained this better.

I think it has more to do with the site than the player location.

With no other reads, I am using this info. Tilt and Stars have the best quality players in the high stakes games. 3-betting light has been around for a little bit and tends to filter down the levels of the site. And the 2p2 forum members love to use this type of stuff on stars.

I tend to see "trendy moves" show up allot earlier on the big sites then the smaller sites.

Is it a generalization?

Sure. But it is info that could be helpfull.

Is it a generalization to say that every person with a cowboy as avatar or the name "PoKErDubE420" stinks at poker?

Yes, but sometimes generalizations give you enough of a read about a situation to tip towards the correct decision


PS

Please no one steal ""PoKErDubE420". If I sign up at Doyles room, I need to use it.

[baudib]

I hate getting 3-bet with QQ, but I tend to suck in my breath and shove over, and see villain flip KJo.

[danoxford]

Wow, I can't believe how tight you guys are to fold QQ in this spot! TT would be a pretty definite fold, JJ may be a fold, but QQ? Even against a tight range we should surely at least still see a flop shouldn't we?

To be fair I think most said they'd prefer to fold than call, I hate calling here. "Seeing a flop" does nothing unless the Q hits, which doesn't have the implied odds or anywhere near to be a good play.

[IAM-member]

A lot of ppl have mentioned that seeing a flop doesn't do anything, how so? If villain is 3bettin hands like KQ, AJ etc as mentioned above unless an overcard hits our equity significantly improves against these hands? Very villain dependent ofc, if i feel he's only 3bettin JJ+ AK for instance then no point in calling perhaps.

[drmcboy]

given current legislative climate, I think a euro playing a 10 SNG is much more likely to be terrible than a US player. But, I would usually assume they both suck.

calling def has a lot of merit.

If the flop is all unders and we go broke to AA/KK, we would have done that shoving pre anyway. And we will still usually stack JJ, maybe even more often since he'll think we won't have a bigger PP. If he has AK, we'll c/r the under flops and instead of getting in a flip the first hand which sucks, we'll add about 500 chips to our stack with no showdown, or force him to continue with a hand with 25% equity. I doubt many players would 3 bet AK here and then check back the flop.

If an A or K comes we'll probably make less from JJ but lose less to AA/KK. And JJ won't like that flop any more than we will so the action will probably go check check, check bet call, check check.

If he has AK (on the Axx/Kxx flops) he'll bet the flop, we'll call, and then give up from there. If he barrels something twice on this board that we beat, good for him. He should make a pair only 1/3, so 2/3 we get his cbet. And, when we check call once on the bad board we have a 1/20 chance of spiking a Q and probably getting all the money.

Even if his range is JJ+, AK, there are 22 (6 JJ 16 AK) combos there, vs only 13 (1 QQ, 6 AA 6 KK) of the hands we don't want to see. Since he's more likely to have AK and we feel pretty good playing against that hand, with no read I think calling is a bit better than shoving. If his 3 bet range is wider, he has a decent chance of making a TP hand and paying us off, and again we'll usually get a c bet even if he misses.

Now if you're a reg in these games and know he is not, I would shove over because he'll probably call with all sorts of dumb stuff because he plays to win.