Fair enough Jason, I was just trying to say in this day and age, once your not in the $2NL-$5NL stages, I don't think 10X is a good minimum, becasue of the amount of actual stacks you win long term at higher stakes. As you say, if villain is stacking off every time 10X is fine, but you will be hard pressed to find one of these, let alone enough to make 10X your standard starting point. I am trying to establish the thinking required to figure out what is a good calling point for most peoples range, I just don't want beginners to start calling raises becasue the stacks are 10x a raise and thinking it's OK. Personally, I have never used 10x to make a call in 3 years and I still think I call too light sometimes