2 Table SNG's?

[Wurble]

Hi all,

My first post here but I have been reading the forums for a while.

I have quite a solid sng game and have played a lot of double or nothings but this last week or so I have been playing the $1.75 18 mans on stars. The problem is, I'm only up about $10 - 15 over more than 100 of them.

I think these are potentially the fishiest games around at the moment which leads me to a couple of questions...

I have been playing these quite tight early on but my early game all in calling range has been opened to TT+ because I figure I'm more often than not up against AK/AQ/AJ/KQ so am happy to take a flip for an early double up.

Other than this my game hasn't really changed, I sit tight until push/fold then start picking my spots. The problem is though that the players in these games call a lot looser than they should and I'm being sucked out on and find myself involved in coin flips when all I wanted was the blinds lol This is leading to me being knocked out on the bubble more often than I'd like.

Am I best making more of an effort to accumulate chips early on? I have considered limping suited aces, high sc's and raising pp's from late position in a bid to accumulate more chips before the blinds hit 75/150 but I don't know if this is what I should be doing?

I know that in theory I shouldn't have to change my game much from a 9 man sng but I'm sick of getting to the bubble with a fairly short stack and being sucked out on by some muppet who thinks K6s is a fan-dooby-tastic hand to call a shove with.

[taipan168]

Hi and welcome to FTR, it's great to have you here.

Firstly, 100 games is a very tiny sample size so you can't draw any conclusions from that. Secondly, if you are crashing out due to being sucked out, it sounds counterintuitive but you should be happy about that because by definition it means you got your chips in with the better hand. But probably the best way to see whether you have leaks is to post hands/tourneys for review.

[Wurble]

Hi and welcome to FTR, it's great to have you here.

Firstly, 100 games is a very tiny sample size so you can't draw any conclusions from that. Secondly, if you are crashing out due to being sucked out, it sounds counterintuitive but you should be happy about that because by definition it means you got your chips in with the better hand. But probably the best way to see whether you have leaks is to post hands/tourneys for review.

Thanks for the reply...

I know that 100 games is a small sample but I'd rather not wait until I've played a couple of thousand to realise I should have been doing something very different.

My question was more about specific strategy for these games. What I mean is, in normal 9 man sng's the optimal strategy for low stakes is well known, early game limp pp's for set value, play AA, KK, QQ hard and then use ICM for push/fold.

I just wonder if there is a need to loosen up at all in the 2 table games? Or am I doing the right thing staying tight early and using my ICM knowledge as my edge later on?

The problem with being sucked out on in push/fold is that if players are calling loose then there is a need to push tighter - Obviously with 10bb's and rapidly increasing blinds it's not always possible to wait for the correct hands to push into the villains loose calling range.

I have this week coming off work and I plan to play 600 18 mans over the week to see where I'm at with them. I would just like confirmation that my game is theoretically sound or some pointers to where I should adjust from the standard 9 man strategy?

Any comments/suggestions will be appreciated

[TLR]

A few things
1. Move up from the $1.50+25 as soon as you can, the rake is terrible and will hurt your ROI
2. The main difference between the 9 players and 18 players is the part when the tournament is in the 10-13 player range, blinds are relatively low and the table is short handed, most players do not adjust well at those spots, you need to open up your game, and then tighten up again once you hit the final table

[lolzzz_321]

Here is my giraffe for 1k 18 mans:



I probably need to stop donking out in 17th and 18th, but I think that is variance. I am not stacking off with AQ pre in L1 lol. I took TLR's second point to heart . I could probably lower my tenth place finishes and raise my 7th or 8th instead of pure bubbling in 5th so much. I will look and see if anything changes in mah next 1k games.

Just post HH, taipan is spot-on and always here. I really like the 18 mans, but I am soooooo busy now! GL and welcome to FTR!

[taipan168]

My question was more about specific strategy for these games. What I mean is, in normal 9 man sng's the optimal strategy for low stakes is well known, early game limp pp's for set value, play AA, KK, QQ hard and then use ICM for push/fold.

I just wonder if there is a need to loosen up at all in the 2 table games? Or am I doing the right thing staying tight early and using my ICM knowledge as my edge later on?

I would say that you remain tight until you get to the push/fold stage and then use your ICM knowledge. TLR raises a very good point about needing to adapt from a full table to a shorthanded table back to a full table again, this is definitely important too.

The problem with being sucked out on in push/fold is that if players are calling loose then there is a need to push tighter - Obviously with 10bb's and rapidly increasing blinds it's not always possible to wait for the correct hands to push into the villains loose calling range.

There is always a correct (+EV) time to push (or call an AI). In an extreme case where you get no hands and there is lots of action in front of you, this could even be calling an AI with ATC (but of course you would prefer not to let it get to that stage).

I would just like confirmation that my game is theoretically sound or some pointers to where I should adjust from the standard 9 man strategy?

I'd say your general strategy is sound. Take some time to post some hands in the middle of those 600 tourneys and we'll take a look.

[Wurble]

I appreciate the responses guys, thanks.

I will remain tight but TLR's advice regarding short handed situations is something I will take on board. It is sound advice although I am struggling to incorporate it as I play 12 tables I don't automatically look to see how many players are at my table before I make a decision. Obviously when I know I'm in the final 6 I do but I am usually down to 5 or 6 tables by then and can see them all on my screen.

I really need SNG wiz or something as I'm finding marginal spots that I'm unsure about quite often - I will definitely start posting hands.

Thanks again

[taipan168]

I really need SNG wiz or something as I'm finding marginal spots that I'm unsure about quite often - I will definitely start posting hands.

If you are serious about playing SNGs then you definitely need SNG Wiz to analyse hands, it is indispensable.

[Poker Orifice]

I appreciate the responses guys, thanks.

I will remain tight but TLR's advice regarding short handed situations is something I will take on board. It is sound advice although I am struggling to incorporate it as I play 12 tables I don't automatically look to see how many players are at my table before I make a decision. Obviously when I know I'm in the final 6 I do but I am usually down to 5 or 6 tables by then and can see them all on my screen.

I really need SNG wiz or something as I'm finding marginal spots that I'm unsure about quite often - I will definitely start posting hands.

Thanks again

maybe play fewer tables if you're unable to spot where games are down to 10-13 players... imo this stage is crucial as you don't want to get to final table with puney stack w no fe.
As far as players calling really wide... playing fewer tables you will have better reads on who is icm dumb & calls really wide. (what's our objective by playing 12-tables?,... if we're not maximizing our profit then maybe playing at less tables in these will result in larger return?).
I actually played a few of these the other night as I used to play them my first week/month online. Only 3 games but seemed to have 2or3 decent micro sng players in each of them (based upon stats.) & LOTS of really bad, over-aggro spewy donks who seem to be unable to resist the urge to play every single hand.
I'm guessing another 100 of these & you won't be playing them anymore & will have moved up to the $3's (15% tourney fee is pretty high for the $1.50+.25 games). Incidentally, the micro 27's are very soft on Fulltilt (comparatively speaking that is...compared to STT or 18's)... not sure what they're like on Stars.

[Wurble]

maybe play fewer tables if you're unable to spot where games are down to 10-13 players... imo this stage is crucial as you don't want to get to final table with puney stack w no fe.
As far as players calling really wide... playing fewer tables you will have better reads on who is icm dumb & calls really wide. (what's our objective by playing 12-tables?,... if we're not maximizing our profit then maybe playing at less tables in these will result in larger return?).
I actually played a few of these the other night as I used to play them my first week/month online. Only 3 games but seemed to have 2or3 decent micro sng players in each of them (based upon stats.) & LOTS of really bad, over-aggro spewy donks who seem to be unable to resist the urge to play every single hand.
I'm guessing another 100 of these & you won't be playing them anymore & will have moved up to the $3's (15% tourney fee is pretty high for the $1.50+.25 games). Incidentally, the micro 27's are very soft on Fulltilt (comparatively speaking that is...compared to STT or 18's)... not sure what they're like on Stars.

Yeah, I've taken your advice on board and dropped to 9 tables so I can get more reads and spot the short handed situations when they arise. I have already noticed an improvement in my results although over a small sample.

I had tilted my roll away previously as I was hell bent on playing DON's - 2000 $1.10's at barely break even made me do silly things and I also played a lot of larger multi table tournies... Although I got some good results my ROI in these is like -50% because of no final tables and I never had the roll to play them anyway. A lesson for all lol.

Basically I've started these $1.75's from $30 I won in an MTT, I've grinded that upto $110 and will be sticking with 18 mans. I hope to be rolled for the $3.40's (100 buy ins) within the next week or two and then if I have a positive ROI with those I will buy sng wizard.

I have been advised to post hands which is something I agree with but I don't ever remember to make a note of tricky situations to dig the HH out after the set... Will have to make an effort to remember!

[lolzzz_321]

Just keep a notepad file open while you are playing and you can stick hands of interest in there

[Wurble]

Just keep a notepad file open while you are playing and you can stick hands of interest in there

lol I know it's stupid but I hadn't thought of that! I will do, cheers

[paws]

Hi all,
I have been playing these quite tight early on but my early game all in calling range has been opened to TT+ because I figure I'm more often than not up against AK/AQ/AJ/KQ so am happy to take a flip for an early double up.

Early game I'd push with only AQs+,QQ+ and call with AK,KK+.

If you plan take a 50/50 coin flip by calling an AI, then it's -EV because your equity in the prize pool doesnt' double with your chips according to the ICM. You really want to be at the top of the pusher's range when calling. It's preferrable to be the pusher yourself because of the added fold equity.

For example:
9 players, each 1500 chips: Hero has 11.1% ICM equity in the prize pool.
8 players, hero has called an AI and lost: 0% equity
8 players, hero has won and now ~3000 chips: hero's ICM equity is 20.3%

So by calling an all in with a 50/50 coin flip early on, you lose 9% (11.1% -> 10.15%) of your prize pool equity. It's even worse when there are more players in the tournament.

[Wurble]

Early game I'd push with only AQs+,QQ+ and call with AK,KK+.

If you plan take a 50/50 coin flip by calling an AI, then it's -EV because your equity in the prize pool doesnt' double with your chips according to the ICM. You really want to be at the top of the pusher's range when calling. It's preferrable to be the pusher yourself because of the added fold equity.

For example:
9 players, each 1500 chips: Hero has 11.1% ICM equity in the prize pool.
8 players, hero has called an AI and lost: 0% equity
8 players, hero has won and now ~3000 chips: hero's ICM equity is 20.3%

So by calling an all in with a 50/50 coin flip early on, you lose 9% (11.1% -> 10.15%) of your prize pool equity. It's even worse when there are more players in the tournament.

Thanks for this, I see your point. I have tightened my all in calling range again anyway, it was more that when I first started playing these I was noticing alot of early game pushes which were pretty pointless so decided I was gonna take the flips.

I see that this is a bad move and will stop doing it whilst I'm ahead.

I have to say though... There are some serious donks playing these, some push as wide as JTs and there are often people calling with any suited K or Q. Madness.

[taipan168]

Early game I'd push with only AQs+,QQ+ and call with AK,KK+.

If you plan take a 50/50 coin flip by calling an AI, then it's -EV because your equity in the prize pool doesnt' double with your chips according to the ICM. You really want to be at the top of the pusher's range when calling. It's preferrable to be the pusher yourself because of the added fold equity.

For example:
9 players, each 1500 chips: Hero has 11.1% ICM equity in the prize pool.
8 players, hero has called an AI and lost: 0% equity
8 players, hero has won and now ~3000 chips: hero's ICM equity is 20.3%

So by calling an all in with a 50/50 coin flip early on, you lose 9% (11.1% -> 10.15%) of your prize pool equity. It's even worse when there are more players in the tournament.

I agree with your ICM analysis and reasoning but not necessarily your ranges. The range you would push or call a push with is very dependent upon reads of the other players on the table, position and stack sizes.

To take an extreme example, if I was up against a maniac who was pushing every single hand and now shoved for the 10th time, everybody else folded and I had 77 in the BB, I would insta call even if it was only the second blind level. Remember to be +EV you only need to be 11.1/20.3 = 54.7% to win:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.764% 33.25% 00.51% 4185073272 64269930.00 { random }
Hand 1: 66.236% 65.73% 00.51% 8271821268 64269930.00 { 77 }

[Fielmann]

So by calling an all in with a 50/50 coin flip early on, you lose 9% (11.1% -> 10.15%) of your prize pool equity. It's even worse when there are more players in the tournament.

Sentence in bold is not necessarily correct as it depends on the pay-out structure. For instance in the beginning of a big MTT the ICM effects are almost negligible.

[Wurble]

With regard to all in calling ranges in the early phases then, assuming it's not a decent reg making the push and I can assume a massive range, maybe JTs+, 33+ (seriously, I've seen it all) would it then be correct to call with TT+?

I'm not so good with the maths behing it all, I know some basics but you guys are far more clued up than me - Something I need to work on.

On another note, I am now back in work.. Gutted. I haven't managed to play 600 games as planned but since starting the 18 mans with $30 I have played roughly 500 sng's and my roll is now sat at $150.

A couple of days ago it was $215 and then I went on a 34 game losing streak which scared the life out of me. Since then my results have been mixed but I am down $65 from my account's highest point.

This to me doesn't seem normal, I have setup a new computer that has been sat in our attic for a year so that I can use the sng wiz 30 day trial before purchasing (i had already had it on the laptop but never used it) because I feel I must have some horrendous leaks.

Surely a drop of $65 at this limit cannot just be explained away as variance or a downswing? It must be bad play mustn't it?

Anyone have an opinion on this? Has anyone had a downswing this big that cannot be explained by bad play?

[taipan168]

With regard to all in calling ranges in the early phases then, assuming it's not a decent reg making the push and I can assume a massive range, maybe JTs+, 33+ (seriously, I've seen it all) would it then be correct to call with TT+?

Very hard to say in a vacuum. Either use SNG Wiz or download Pokerstove (it's free) to determine your calling ranges depending on your read of the player pushing.

On another note, I am now back in work.. Gutted. I haven't managed to play 600 games as planned but since starting the 18 mans with $30 I have played roughly 500 sng's and my roll is now sat at $150.

Sounds like a pretty decent ROI to me!

A couple of days ago it was $215 and then I went on a 34 game losing streak which scared the life out of me. Since then my results have been mixed but I am down $65 from my account's highest point.

This to me doesn't seem normal, I have setup a new computer that has been sat in our attic for a year so that I can use the sng wiz 30 day trial before purchasing (i had already had it on the laptop but never used it) because I feel I must have some horrendous leaks.

Surely a drop of $65 at this limit cannot just be explained away as variance or a downswing? It must be bad play mustn't it?

Oh yes, a 34 buyin downswing is very possible at every buyin, which is why many players (including myself) like to have a roll of 100 buyins as insurance.

Anyone have an opinion on this? Has anyone had a downswing this big that cannot be explained by bad play?

Yes, I had a 45 buyin downswing at the $27 games but I wouldn't go as far as to say that I played perfectly in all of them. The hardest thing about playing through a downswing is not to go on tilt. Tilt doesn't just mean going completely stark raving mad and shoving every hand, it could also manifest itself if you start playing scared ("I've lost the last 7 flips with AK, no way am I gonna call this time")

Seriously, the best advice I can give you is to review your hands in SNG Wiz and post hands/tourneys here for comment. That way you'll get some suggestions as to how you can improve your game (because nobody plays perfectly).

[Wurble]

Thanks again Taipan. I will start reviewing my play in sng wiz tonight and split my time 60/40 between play and review to fix these leaks.

I know for sure I don't play perfectly and would get pwned by you more experienced players but the reason I haven't posted any hands is because I've not found myself in a spot where I've questioned my action. At this limit my decisions are quite straight forward most of the time - Maybe mathematically I should be making some different plays which SNG Wiz will teach me but I feel that against most of the players in the $1.75's I'm ahead the large majority of the time.

If I find myself in an awkward spot though I will get the hand up for review.

[taipan168]

I suggest selecting a tourney at random, trimming it and posting it on this forum. There may be hands that you think are automatic that are not. I remember the first time I posted a tourney it opened my eyes as I didn't realise I was making so many mistakes. Not to say you are in the same category but you never know what another set of eyes might find.

[Wurble]

I suggest selecting a tourney at random, trimming it and posting it on this forum. There may be hands that you think are automatic that are not. I remember the first time I posted a tourney it opened my eyes as I didn't realise I was making so many mistakes. Not to say you are in the same category but you never know what another set of eyes might find.

OK, I will do that after this set

[Wurble]

I just had a mess around with the tourney trimmer and can't work out what to do once I've deleted all of the useless hands... Do I just copy and paste the rest? Will that come up in the correct format?

I will post a tourney tomorrow... need to sleep.

[taipan168]

I just had a mess around with the tourney trimmer and can't work out what to do once I've deleted all of the useless hands... Do I just copy and paste the rest? Will that come up in the correct format?

I will post a tourney tomorrow... need to sleep.

Just trim the whole file that Stars saves to your hard drive and the trimmer will take care of the rest. No need to delete the useless hands, the trimmer will summarise them.

[paws]

I agree with your ICM analysis and reasoning but not necessarily your ranges. The range you would push or call a push with is very dependent upon reads of the other players on the table, position and stack sizes.

To take an extreme example, if I was up against a maniac who was pushing every single hand and now shoved for the 10th time, everybody else folded and I had 77 in the BB, I would insta call even if it was only the second blind level. Remember to be +EV you only need to be 11.1/20.3 = 54.7% to win:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.764% 33.25% 00.51% 4185073272 64269930.00 { random }
Hand 1: 66.236% 65.73% 00.51% 8271821268 64269930.00 { 77 }

That's right, my calling range was meant to be for the early tournament stage where there aren't any solid reads. If I don't know if my opponent is tight or loose, I'd rather put him on a tight pushing range to be on the safe side.

[Wurble]

Thanks for all the advice and thoughts people but I'll be frequenting the cash forum now lol.

My account dropped to $106 after a 300 sng downswing. Was there some bad play? almost definitely but the large majority of the swing was caused by variance. I've been through hundreds of hands in sng wiz and even though I was often ahead when donkey called it was often only by a few percent... That could take 1000's of sng's to even out if I'm always gonna get called at the rate I was being.

I never posted a tourney as the tourney trimmer kept giving me an error, something like 'Can't guess input file type' even though my input file had been successfully imported, plus I've been working late shifts and haven't had much time for the forums.

To save my roll I decided to hit NL5 where I've had a nice heater and got the account back up to $150 so that's where I'll be staying, cash!

Fair play to you guys who can handle the swings of turbo sng's, I know variance is a part of poker and I don't cry over bad beats but those downswings can be brutal.