My WSOP hand - bad play?

[Alpine021]

Hey,

Just got back from Vegas and played in event 30 - $1500 NHLE.

Starting stack 4500 - hour blinds. Got upto 11.5K villain has 10.8K - blinds 75 - 150.

Had my first table pretty sussed out. Knew the tight / loose players etc but then got moved to "the sunglasses table" i.e all players but one and me had the mirrored glasses - pros or idiots trying to be pros probably.

Anyway a few orbits at the new table. Won one hand - table seemed quite tight.

So.. Guy limps MP I look down at KK 2 to his left and raise to 600. All fold and he raises it up to 2K. Ugh. I 4 bet 4.5k more.

It's pretty impossible to give him a range so I'm hoping the hand is done.

So he insta 5 bet shoves. So as KK is obviously unlikely I'm 90 if not 95% sure its aces.

So fold? And leave myself about 4K at an event with about 2300 runners? Well I didnt go to the world series to fold pre with kings so I call and he turns over the obvious and am out a few hands later after being left with about 700.

So I've heard the arguments for flatting the 3 bet and seeing how the flop develops but surely unless an ace flop or a really wet board surely the chips are going in anyway....

So thoughts appreciate but it was awesome anyway and back next year for def. Pros everywhere and also got a pick with Kara Scott and Liv Boeree

[3 pairs should be a hand]

It does seem like a cooler.

However, the repop stunk of AA (tho I accept your argument it could've been KK QQ AK at a stretch AQ or JJ and at an even further stretch could've been a light bet to get you off the hand).

But in 4 betting to "shut it down" you had your information at the same time as you were committed to the hand.

The 5 gave you the information that it was indeed AA but by then it was too late I guess. It's easy to say you should've folded in hinsight but if you knew it was AA you should've folded to stay in the tournament. Folding KK preflop is probably one of the most difficult things to do but better to fold, lick your wounds and come back than pay to see you are indeed right? I dunno just positing the idea.

I think you're 4 bet was wrong. No pot control. It committed you. You didn't expect the repop. The question you should've asked yourself before the 4bet was "what do I do if he doesn't fold, what if he shoves".

A smooth with a reassessment would've allowed you to (possibly) get away from the hand - although again I accept that would've been board dependent.

At the end of the day I think it was a cooler but "I didn't go to the World Series to fold KK preflop" tells you all you need to know - you were well stacked in comparison to the average and it was one hand (accepted the 2nd best starting hand) of however many hundred you would have to play to win the bracelet - hope that doesn't sound harsh, mate.

Don't ignore your subconscious mind.

[Kijjo]

Think your math is a little off.
11.5k - 6.5k = 5k right?
A 5k stack with the blinds 75-150.
I agree that it would've been better to not 4bet, but I may well have done the same myself. But instead of looking at it like I was stack committed, if I'm staring at the obvious AA shove, I hope I have the presence of mind to think to myself "hey, fortunately if I lay this down I still have 33 big blinds to play with." Don't bother with the fact that there's 2300, that's irrelevant. Don't bother with average chipstacks, that too is irrelevant. You would have enough chips to make plays with comparative to the blinds. It sounds like you were doing well at your first table, you could play your way back up pretty quickly with a couple good hands.
Ofcourse all that is easy to say sitting on my lazyboy playing poker on a laptop where I'm not holding the chips and not seeing the mountain of chips in the middle I'm going to let the dealer sweep away to my opponent...

[drmcboy]

KJ post is dead on.

either flat the 3 bet or i guess 4 bet/fold, this is always AA. Yes you may still get stacked if it comes 743 if you flat the three bet, but playing your way you help them fold the under pairs that you stack on that board. Re reading your own post should help you see why 4 betting doesn't make sense.

[RockyMoose]

Alpine, thanks for posting this. I'm going to play one of the $1500 events next year, so am very interested in threads like this. I've played thousands of STTs, but need more MTT experience (hard to find the time!) To hijack the thread, how many MTTs have you played online, and how did those help prepare for this tourney?

[paratrooper99]

First of all, get some shades. It definitely doesnt hurt. KK vs AA. What are you going to do? Unless your Phil Hellmuth, your not laying it down pre-flop. Open Limp and re-raise is usually reserved for AA or KK(less likely) unless your playing a nut. Assuming your not playing a nut, you are either dominated or tied. Someone is not doing this with AK. AQ QQ JJ or TT. Flat the 2k assuming he has AA. This gives you the ability to play a smaller pot and set mine. If you flat the 2k, pot is 4225. His c-bet will likely be roughly 3k. If you call here, you still have 6500 left (43BB). When you have a gut feeling but a good hand, treat it like a pair in a cash game. Set or split.
For the record, I probably play it the same way you did but I think this is a better method.

[Alpine021]

Hey,

Sorry for the late reply.

Thanks for your comments. Well to be honest without taking time to sit back for a second I think that subconsciously I thought my 4-bet would end the hand. So although we all agree that the 5 bet shove is aces - are we talking pretty much 100% of the time?

35BB would have been a playable stack should I fold but if I'm completely honest with myself I was thinking "double up chance" which looking back was stupid. Even if I would have my work cut out a little had I folded. Plus what if he hadn't had shown? That would have bugged me forever surely??

OK for say we flat the 3-bet. I seem to remember the flop coming down Q high dry board. So he c-bets 3K. We can't raise without being committed so we flat and a shove is irrelevant as we get snapped. Then blank turn (it obv. wasn't an A or K) and he probably shoves. And lets all be fair - we are not folding.

I'd love to see how Negreanu would have played this hand with his small ball style.

Rocky Moose as for you post I've played a lot of MTTs online and they help you prepare in that you come across common situations which helps a lot and you've got experiences of stack sizes, antes, early / mid / late stages etc.

But nothing helps you more than live play. The reason IMO is because if you bust out of a MTT, unless its a really expensive one you just either boot up another, play the other games u have open, go get a drink etc etc.

But live you have to stand up and leave. And you can't help certain hands going over and over in your mind as you only get one shot. Whether it's the WSOP or a casino game. Also baring in mind it might not be the hand u went out but the maybe the hand you lost half your stack.

Add to this that at the WSOP I paid the $1500 in cash which your conscious of and not just clicked "register".

So my advice is just get to some live games. Play some at home then play some in vegas. There are loads of cheap ones but look around to get a decent structure.

But I've honestly learnt something everytime I've played live. Mainly as you're normally with mates and can discuss hands afterwards.

But I think this is why pros do so well. They've seen it all before. They don't make big laydowns because they are mind readers they do it because they've been there before. The way an opponent sits in his chair, the way he talks, the time he takes to bet, his mannerisms, where he looks, his bet sizing etc etc.

This is what you can't teach. What is an insta-call one time is a fold another time.

[buddyC]

Well, I think all the logical arguments have already been posted. You always have to take the emotional side of such a tournament and such a hand into account. I know, it's poker and it should be a lot about maths and odds but sometimes the emotional part of your brain takes control. It's so hard to fold KK pre-flop, probably you can see AA coming but I suppose I wouldn't have folded KK in this tourney, too.

[pocketfours]

Lol you've got to snap that shit now. And yes, this hand was played absolutely terribly bad.

Of course flat the limp-raise, doing anything else is retarded.