high pocket pairs on bubble

[Zorkion]

so i know this is more of a general question, but i was wondering what people think of this kind of situation.

so lets say youre on the bubble with an average stack, against a big stack, a small stack, and another average stack.

How do you play your hand when you get TT+ preflop? shove all in with tt-qq hoping that the other people will think youre only shoving with your worse/more drawy hands? 2.5 bet to make it look like a blind steal? 3bet/4bet for the value? or does it depend a lot on the sort of action that you and the other people have been taking/table dynamics, an if so, how big of a difference does that make to you?

i know i dont have a specific example posted, but ive had enough of these situations where i think it can basically be considered a general situation.

or, how does your chipstack affect the action you choose to make?

[taipan168]

or, how does your chipstack affect the action you choose to make?

This, and so does your position, the position of the other stacks, the action in front of you, reads on the other players, their likely reads on you, etc. That's why it's so hard to answer your question in general. It's especially hard because it's the bubble where the ICM effect is magnified.

If you've come across this situation often, it should be easy for you to post an example hand

[givememyleg]

better for you to stick with less generalizations, more situational analysis, me thinks.

[TLR]

better for you to stick with less generalizations, more situational analysis, me thinks.

+1

usually in the turbo tournaments once you are down to the bubble it is a push-fold game anyhow

[ManicLombax]

Assuming you're not in push/fold mode with your middle stack in your hypothetical example, and again depending on position, here's what I'd do in general:

TT-JJ I'd open raise, and probably fold to a shove from the big stack or middle stack, probably calling a shove from the small stack without a good reason not to do so.

KK-AA I'd open raise and call shoves from anyone.

QQ is borderline. I'd open raise, call shoves from the small stack, and think really hard and curse if the other medium stack or the big stack shoves. Need to try to put the shover on a range, but I think this is probably going to be close ICM-wise.

If someone flats you, I'd play pretty conservatively post flop.

[Zorkion]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 120/240 Blinds (4 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t2870)
Hero (Button) (t2930)
SB (t3200)
BB (t4500)

Hero's M: 8.14

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, J
UTG calls t240, Hero bets t2930 (All-In), 2 folds, UTG calls t2630 (All-In)

Flop: (t6100) K, 5, 2 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t6100) 7 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t6100) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t6100



Hand 2)

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 120/240 Blinds (4 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t3350)
Hero (BB) (t2810)
UTG (t2840)
Button (t4500)

Hero's M: 7.81

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q
2 folds, SB calls t120, Hero bets t2810 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: t480



Hand 3)
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (4 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t4310)
Hero (Button) (t4060)
SB (t2560)
BB (t2570)

Hero's M: 13.53

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K
1 fold, Hero bets t500, 2 folds

Total pot: t500


Hand 4)

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 80/160 Blinds (4 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t5870)
Hero (SB) (t2400)
BB (t1460)
UTG (t3770)

Hero's M: 10.00

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K
UTG calls t160, 1 fold, Hero bets t600, 2 folds

Total pot: t480


Hand 5)

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (4 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB (t1828)
UTG (t3105)
Hero (Button) (t6336)
SB (t2231)

Hero's M: 21.12

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, J
UTG calls t200, Hero bets t6336 (All-In), 3 folds

Total pot: t700


Hand 6) (not technically bubble, but people were playing bubble games)

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 80/160 Blinds (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP (t1510)
Button (t1774)
SB (t3765)
Hero (BB) (t4406)
UTG (t2045)

Hero's M: 18.36

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, K
1 fold, MP bets t560, 2 folds, Hero raises to t4406 (All-In), MP calls t950 (All-In)

Flop: (t3100) 10, 7, J (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t3100) 8 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t3100) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t3100



Hand 7) (not a 'high' pp, but whatevs)

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 80/160 Blinds (4 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) (t4005)
SB (t5610)
BB (t2965)
UTG (t920)

Hero's M: 16.69

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, 5
2 folds, SB calls t80, BB checks

Flop: (t320) 8, 7, 4 (2 players)
SB bets t320, 1 fold

Total pot: t320


Hand 8) (also not 'high')

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 150/300 Blinds (4 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB (t6659)
Hero (UTG) (t4309)
Button (t1074)
SB (t1458)

Hero's M: 9.58

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5, 5
Hero bets t4309 (All-In), 3 folds

Total pot: t750



so there are a few examples. apologies, i dont really remember my reads on all opps.

[Fielmann]

Hand 1.
Always shove, anything else is a blunder.

Hand 2.
Always shove.

Hand 3.
Raising 2.5x is acceptable. But note that since the blinds are short, the effective stack is actually in the push/fold mode. I'd shove it if I've been shoving a lot, hoping they'll call wide.

Hand 4.
Raising 3x is fine.

Hand 5.
I'd shove if I've been shoving a lot, hoping they'll call wide. Normally I'd just raise it and definitely call a shove.

Hand 6.
Shoving is definitely fine. Against some aggressive opponents you may get fancy and call pre, check safe flops.

Hand 7.
Raise 2.5x. Folding is acceptable only if SB is 3-bet shoving absolutely maniacally.

Hand 8.
Snapfold!

[givememyleg]

hand 1 2 5 - i don't just shove these, i raise for value and get it in postlfop.

for example in hand 2, if you instead make it ~450ish he may call with 87o but definitely not calling the shove.

seems wasteful to me to just shove all your monsters preflop on the bubble and hope no one calls.

hand 6 - definitely shove.

[baudib]

I'd make a standard raise with QQ IP vs. a donk SB.

The only bad hand is 55 UTG with big stack in BB, that's a disaster imo.

[taipan168]

1. JJ - shove is fine here. I don't want to get caught out making a standard raise then having overcards come on the flop, plus UTG definitely calls your shove with hands you beat if they are a bad player (which they are if they are limping UTG with these blinds).

2. QQ - I'd make a standard raise to 600 or so and take it from there. As baudib said, opp will try to see a flop with a lot of hands that you crush if you raise less than AI but will fold those hands to a shove.

3. KK - perfect

4. KK - fine.

5. JJ - I think this is fine too, main reason for the shove is that UTG is the second stack. If they were shorter stacked so you could put them AI on the flop with a pot sized bet I would say make a standard raise.

6. KK - fine, I'd be surprised if opp folded here. As Fielmann said, against some opps you can get trappy and flat call the raise then put them AI on any flop.

7. 55 - I'd make it 200 to go and take it from there. Stacks are definitely deep enough such that you can play at least some postflop.

8. 55 - I fold this one very very fast indeed. If your and BB's stacks were swapped I would shove very happily however.