ATo facing limper

[dneureiter]

$5.50 9 man
NL Holdem $100(BB) Full Tilt
SB ($1,430)
BB ($2,590)
UTG ($1,460)
UTG+1 ($3,325)
Hero ($1,730)
BTN ($2,965)

Dealt to Hero T A

UTG calls $100, fold, Hero (), =



utg running 50/20 over 50 hands. He has folded postflop (!) but is pretty much a station and donks alot. To be honest these are spots where it is awful to shove but I am sorely tempted.

limping behind is pretty awful just because of the # of people left to act and if we raise to 300-400 we will have pretty mediocre fold equity pre against the limper.

I'm guessing raise + cbet most flops is obv the way to go. I'm just addicted to shoving in these spots so I've never done differently. Finding that fulltilt plays tighter in general and shoving in the spots went from -ev to ----ev because hardly any worse hands call (even the fish prob won't call any worse aces)

[ManicLombax]

I don't like any of your options. As you say if you raise you're almost always going to get called by the limper. If you raise 350 and get just the one caller, the pot is 850 and you only have 1400 chips left. If you c-bet you've now put nearly half your stack in.

Sometimes I'd limp this in here, even though you have people to act behind you, but that's probably not right either. Fold?

[taipan168]

Bleh, I probably just fold it. I'd definitely shove AQ and maybe AJs but this is a bit weak for me.

Not sure I like the raise/c-bet option against a calling station type player like this as I think your fold equity isn't very good either preflop or on the flop.

[fulksy]

i really don't like shoving here as he's rarely going to make a mistake, even most donks aren't calling worse. i fold, but with AQ+ i still wouldn't shove i would make it `350 and play a hand IP.

[dneureiter]

i really don't like shoving here as he's rarely going to make a mistake, even most donks aren't calling worse. i fold, but with AQ+ i still wouldn't shove i would make it 350 and play a hand IP.

yea there's really no hand I should be shoving here for 16 bbs outside of like JJ QQ if I think the limper is a total tard.

Limping is def going against the grain but the 3 players to act behind me in this case were all pretty tight/passive. Prob makes the hand 4way though.

Weird psychological barrier between like A9 and AT/AJ because T/J is a broadway card. Like I muck A9 here always and would feel stupid folding AT. Not wanting to feel stupid is 100% a bad reason to shove Stupid reason, really.

[drmcboy]

Bleh, I probably just fold it. I'd definitely shove AQ and maybe AJs but this is a bit weak for me.

Not sure I like the raise/c-bet option against a calling station type player like this as I think your fold equity isn't very good either preflop or on the flop.

why would we want him to fold?

[taipan168]

why would we want him to fold?

Sorry I wasn't really clear about that, I agree that preflop he will probably call with worse hands which obviously is a great thing. My comment was more directed to a missed flop where calling station players like this will call with wacky hands like bottom/middle pair.

[baudib]

ATo is such a rough hand as far as postflop playability, I'd much rather have KQs. Either shoving or folding, probably folding.

[drmcboy]

he'll make a pair 1/3 and some of those times we'll make a better hand, still doesn't make sense to me. Would you fold AK using the same logic?

[taipan168]

he'll make a pair 1/3 and some of those times we'll make a better hand, still doesn't make sense to me. Would you fold AK using the same logic?

True, but if you have a calling station-type player who will call with any piece of the board, any draw and sometimes even worse overcards, if you c-bet the flop you may well get called with worse, but are we going to commit our stack when we have no idea whether we are ahead or behind?

Honestly I don't hate raise to 350/c-bet flop, but considering the blinds I think we can pick a different type of player (eg. weak tighties) against whom to pull this move.

[drmcboy]

tell me what changes about your argument if you have AK or TT? Basically you're saying you want to want for the nuts to put the money in against a station. He's outplaying you with his 'bad' limp.

raising a weak tight UTG limper with ATo seems much worse to me, why turn it into a bluff? If you're saying they will fold, you might as well have something playable like 34s.

There is also no rule that says you have to c bet the flop.

but are we going to commit our stack when we have no idea whether we are ahead or behind?

this comment indicates a gigantic leak. If you aren't putting the money in bad a decent amount you're doing it wrong.

[taipan168]

Fair point, my logic must be all screwy and I must be making sub-optimal decisions.

Is a reasonable argument for folding the fact that we have three players to act after us?

[ManicLombax]

Drmcboy how would you play this? I see your point asking whether we'd play AK the same way. We have the same % chance to whiff the flop, but I'd obviously raise AK here. Since we're way ahead of UTG's limp range, you raise here with ATo right? If the flop comes Q84 rainbow, are you happy getting it in? As you said there's a 2/3 chance UTG missed his hand as well, and if he did miss we're most likely ahead.

I'm a nitty taipan disciple, so interested in this conversation.

[drmcboy]

I'd make it 400 and assuming he checks to us the only flops I would not ship would be say 5d6d7d or A23r.

re the players left to act, I think it's fine to fold to their jam if it happens, but I assume if it's folded to you on the CO with ATo you're raising?

my feeling is someone is going to get this clown's chips, it should be us.

[ManicLombax]

Cool, thanks. Have to think about adding that to my game. I do tend to wait until I have a premium hand before going up against a station. Then I'm too fearful to c-bet my AK when I miss the flop, knowing he'll call with bottom pair.

re the players left to act, I think it's fine to fold to their jam if it happens, but I assume if it's folded to you on the CO with ATo you're raising?

Yeah I'm definitely raising ATo from the CO with no limpers in front.