Pocket 10s in BB very first hand to action.

[Alpine021]

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 11 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO (t1530)
Button (t1500)
SB (t1470)
Hero (BB) (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)

Hero's M: 33.33

Preflop: Hero is BB with 10, 10
1 fold, UTG+1 bets t90, MP1 raises to t270, 4 folds, SB calls t255, 2 folds

No stats on any1. So 2 questions:

1) What's my move if SB doesn't call. So raise and re-raise. Straight pass?

2) Now SB has called is it an insta pass or would any1 shove here?

Now to show u the standard of play here is the rest of the hand. Unbelievable..., lol



Flop: (t660) 6, 6, 4 (2 players)
SB bets t660, MP1 raises to t1230 (All-In), SB calls t540 (All-In)

Turn: (t3060) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t3060) 9 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t3060

{edit - results removed, don't post results}

[taipan168]

I would pass. To have express odds to set hunt you need about 7.5 to 1 pot odds. In this case you are getting 6.25 to 1 on the call so you don't even have express odds even assuming that every time you hit a set you double up.

Plus, when there is a raise and a re-raise in front, you have to put JJ+ solidly in their ranges which means that you need to hit a set on the flop to know you're good.

[ManicLombax]

I agree, pass here. First hand you don't know if these are all idiots or if some of them might have something. Even if I think they're idiots I let them knock each other out unless I have a monster. Plus if you call here UTG+1 can still re-raise behind you. I wouldn't shove with a re-raiser in the mix, squeeze play works better with one open raiser and one caller.

Taipan can you explain your calculations here? Not quite sure what you mean by express odds. I see it costs 240 to call and the pot is currently 660, so you have 2.75:1 pot odds. If you do manage to stack one player, they've got 1230 more behind, so you could win a total of 1890 if everyone else gets out, so about 7.9:1 implied odds. Obviously as you say you can't count on stacking anyone if you do hit a set. On the other hand maybe they have AA and KK and you triple up sometimes.

I still say fold, just wondering about the math.

[drmcboy]

express odds=pot odds. Your post is right, Tai's numbers are off and the rest is confusing because you don't necessarily need the proper pot odds if the implied odds are there. I'm assuming he's been drinking.

PS I used my mad deduction skills to figure out this is the very second hand.

[ManicLombax]

PS I used my mad deduction skills to figure out this is the very second hand.

You sir, are a calculafication guru.

[taipan168]

Oops, I screwed up the pot odds calculations and my prior post was confusing too. Mea culpa.

Manic's calculations are correct - I forgot to take the chips in the pot into account. Still, can we be confident that if we hit a set, we will win at least 7.5 times the amount we need to call - ie. that we stack at least one player? The fact that there are >1 opps in the pot increases the chance but remember that we don't close the action so if UTG+1 shoves over we have to let it go. I still lean towards folding in this spot. If we closed the action and there were 2+ opps in the pot I might call and play for set value.

[drmcboy]

yeah it's a weird spot because either SB is a real clown that might stack off with middle pair, or he has a hand that will almost always pay us off and presumably MP does as well, no one hates set hunting more than me but...

[Nakamura]

no one hates set hunting more than me but...

I see a lot of merit in this line of thinking. Every time I see a nit limp-call, I have an amazing ability to soul-read any kind of flop action.

[Alpine021]

but due to shallow stacks is shoving a terrible play?

[drmcboy]

I think it's a terrible play because it's an SNG, there was a 3 bet, and you don't have AA

[taipan168]

I think it's a terrible play because it's an SNG, there was a 3 bet, and you don't have AA

I'd make an exception for KK, but otherwise what he said

[drmcboy]

but there is only one combo of KK left!

[taipan168]

but there is only one combo of KK left!

Happy to split SB's stack with MP1 in that case!

[Fielmann]

but there is only one combo of KK left!

The fact that we think that we should stack off against 3-bet with {KK+} doesn't mean that we think that opponents 3-bet only with {KK+}.

It's the gap concept. Opponents 3-bet with {QQ+, AK}, sometimes with {TT+, AJ+}, occasionally with {74s}, and the most suitable range to combat these 3-bets is {KK+}.

[TLR]

remember that we don't close the action so if UTG+1 shoves over we have to let it go. I still lean towards folding in this spot. If we closed the action and there were 2+ opps in the pot I might call and play for set value.

I think this is a fold for the reason stated by Taipan, if Hero is closing the action I would have called here

[foshizulmynizul]

so using taipans deduction would it be the same outcome if hero had say QQ?

[taipan168]

so using taipans deduction would it be the same outcome if hero had say QQ?

Very read dependent on the 3-better. If the 3-better is LAGG I might even shove over with TT+, if the 3-better is super tight I would fold TT and JJ and flat with QQ