KK in trouble?

[stardustakos]

Opponent runs 23/6 over 45 hands, I don't remember anything about him, seems decent. Comments on my line please? I didn't want to be too aggro, cause I figured he wouldn't fold an A if I bet flop (and there are a lot of A in his range), and definately not after the river A.

PokerStars - $5+$0.50|60/120 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

LP: 13,350.00
CO: 7,160.00
Hero (BTN): 7,125.00
SB: 6,570.00
BB: 7,110.00
UTG: 5,895.00
UTG+1: 8,620.00
MP: 20,600.00
MP+1: 15,375.00

LP posts ante 20.00, CO posts ante 20.00, Hero posts ante 20.00, SB posts ante 20.00, BB posts ante 20.00, UTG posts ante 20.00, UTG+1 posts ante 20.00, MP posts ante 20.00, MP+1 posts ante 20.00, SB posts SB 60.00, BB posts BB 120.00

Pre Flop: (360.00) Hero has K K

fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to 300.00, fold, fold, Hero raises to 750.00, fold, fold, MP+1 calls 450.00

Flop: (1860.00, 2 players) A 9 5
MP+1 checks, Hero checks

Turn: (1860.00, 2 players) J
MP+1 checks, Hero bets 600.00, MP+1 calls 600.00

River: (3060.00, 2 players) A
MP+1 checks, Hero checks

[drmcboy]

looks good until river, I would toss like 900 in

[KoRnholio]

Yeah definitely bet the river again after he checks.

[fjuanl]

Against what appears to be a fish, its going to very hard for valuebetting thin to be a leak. Don't think he would fold Jx if you bet 1700. I like your line up to then

[stardustakos]

You mean, value bet? But my read is that he has an A! I have seen this line over and over again, betting the river and getting screwed by our fishy players cause they have Arag mostly and will call any bet, even more than 1700...

[bjsaust]

What A does he have that he calls a 3bet with, but doesn't bet turn?

[KoRnholio]

What A does he have that he calls a 3bet with, but doesn't bet turn?

Or donk bet the river fearing you will check behind.

[stardustakos]

What A does he have that he calls a 3bet with, but doesn't bet turn?

For example AT, A8. Afraid of the bigger kicker. Tell me you havent seen fish calling 3-bets with all kinds of junk and then taling that passive line when they hit the A or something...

[fjuanl]

For example AT, A8. Afraid of the bigger kicker. Tell me you havent seen fish calling 3-bets with all kinds of junk and then taling that passive line when they hit the A or something...

A lot of this junk is still worse than KK. Sure, you can't really rule out the possibility that someone could still have Ax in their range. But I would discount this because

- He didnt bet the turn
- He didn't check/raise turn over your small bet
- He didn't lead river
- Its much more difficult in terms of hand-combinations for someone to have A7 (8) than a hand like QJ (12)

If you get check/raised you shouldn't feel like you made a mistake. Its a fairly easy decision for you because I think its almost always Ax or better and if villain had QJ, 77, 65s, JJ, 98s and a bunch of other stuff you beat, hes not folding.

[stardustakos]

I understand. The whole argument is betting the river. Betting doesn't mean you are commited, one must bet in this situation. But EVERY time I am in a situation like this and I bet, I always lose. That is it. There is ALWAYS an A. I know that I haven't played that many tournaments (about 2,000 games) but when something becomes standard then you tend to protect yourself. That's it.

[KoRnholio]

I understand. The whole argument is betting the river. Betting doesn't mean you are commited, one must bet in this situation. But EVERY time I am in a situation like this and I bet, I always lose. That is it. There is ALWAYS an A. I know that I haven't played that many tournaments (about 2,000 games) but when something becomes standard then you tend to protect yourself. That's it.

I could dig up two hands I've played in the last 2 weeks where I had KK on AxxAx and AxxxA boards and I value bet on the end after similar action. Once they folded (claiming K9) and the other called with TT. They most surely don't always have it.

[stardustakos]

ok point taken. I guess I am reacting like this cause I am running so bad, wich is not a good thing. I will try not to do "fear mistakes". I also make bet sizing mistakes cause of the same reason and I lose a lot of value. Thanks guys

[b-rabbit]

A lot of this junk is still worse than KK. Sure, you can't really rule out the possibility that someone could still have Ax in their range. But I would discount this because

- He didnt bet the turn
- He didn't check/raise turn over your small bet
- He didn't lead river
- Its much more difficult in terms of hand-combinations for someone to have A7 (8) than a hand like QJ (12)

If you get check/raised you shouldn't feel like you made a mistake. Its a fairly easy decision for you because I think its almost always Ax or better and if villain had QJ, 77, 65s, JJ, 98s and a bunch of other stuff you beat, hes not folding.

I was gonna post my 2 cents and then I read this...so yea this.

[OngBonga]

I don't like the flop check, if I was sitting in villain's shoes I'd seize upon it. 3bet pre then check the ace? That kings or queens you got there boy? Just out of curiosity, how do you play your KK if villain pots turn pots river?

[drmcboy]

worrying a 23/6 will two barrel you with worse than KK here with no other read doesn't make sense to me. I'm sure it will happen but not enough to change the way we should play the hand. Betting the flop you help him fold everything you beat and prevent him from taking one shot.

[OngBonga]

I like the flop check, it encourages spew from fish.

[djh860]

The adage is don't bet if you can't call a raise. So I check the river.

[fjuanl]

The adage is don't bet if you can't call a raise. So I check the river.

Here's a hypothetical situation:

Villain is a loose/passive calling station. He will call a river bet with Ax, Jx, QQ, KK, and TT. He will only check/raise the river if he has a full house. According to your statement, you should check the river if you have worse than a full house. This doesn't seem right does it? Would you check the river with AK?

[KoRnholio]

The adage is don't bet if you can't call a raise. So I check the river.

The adage is: don't bet if you can't get a call from a worse hand (or make a better hand fold). In this hand, our station friend will surely check and call with many two pair hands.

[griffey24]

The adage is don't bet if you can't call a raise. So I check the river.

I'm not an MTT player, but felt the need to reply to this. This is really bad logic and will hurt your game if you think like this.

There are an infinite number of spots where you would want to bet, despite being unable to call a raise. Our bet is vs his calling range. His calling range is worse than our hand and there's lots of value.

We bet/fold vs his raising range, his raising range beats us. Just cause we don't beat his raising range, doesn't mean there isn't a ton of value vs his calling range.

[stardustakos]

Just cause we don't beat his raising range, doesn't mean there isn't a ton of value vs his calling range.

This

[Kebo11K]

I don't have any problem with how you played it except possibly a bet on the river