JJ vs super LAGGtard on paired board.

[Donachello]

Villain is like 35/29 opening a large range from every position and not folding to 3bets very much.

Full Tilt - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $25.92
UTG: $126.01
Hero (MP): $25.35
CO: $92.83
BTN: $30.00
SB: $16.21

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has J J

UTG raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.25, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls $1.50

Given the villain type I think 3betting here is standard especially because I don't want the reggy players on my left to call with random shit and out play me with position post flop.

Flop: ($4.85, 2 players) 4 K 6
UTG checks, Hero bets $2.50, UTG calls $2.50

Not the greatest flop but I can expect this player to 3bet AK and QQ preflop basically 100% of the time and as he does not like to fold I think I can value bet vs all of the PP in his range pretty comfortably and obviously pot control on bad turns.

Turn: ($9.85, 2 players) K
UTG checks, Hero bets $4.50, UTG raises to $9.00, Hero calls $4.50

This is a pretty fantastic turn imo since it not only lowers the combos that he can hold with a K in them but it also makes my bet less likely to be a K which then widens his calling range. I think my bet should have been a bit bigger here and when he min raises it's a pretty stupid spot. I honestly don't know what type of range he would minraise with but it could easily be him not believing me and trying to steal cheaply or even thinking his 77-TT is good. I call and I think this spot is basically where you either commit to the pot an call any river or fold. In this case I elected to call and so the river plays itself.

River: ($27.85, 2 players) 2
UTG bets $112.26 and is all-in


The turn is probably pretty close and is more likely to be a fold on second thought but the flop could also probably be a check behind. Again I'm interested to hear people's opinions on those two streets in particular.

[JoeHaw]

Turn is an excellent card yes, until he minraises. He def has more KQ AK and even KJ than he does bluffs, but then you are offered excellent odds. Ultimately a call is fine if you don't think villain is following up his bluffs on river ( if you think the minraise is just a weak stab) but I have trouble believing this guy won't lead out with a bet you can't call on lots of rivers.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd like to fold turn, but I also play full ring and suck at poker

EDIT also I'd never check flop against this villain

[daviddem]

Not the greatest flop but I can expect this player to 3bet AK and QQ preflop basically 100% of the time and as he does not like to fold I think I can value bet vs all of the PP in his range pretty comfortably and obviously pot control on bad turns.

May I ask why you are confident to get value from underpairs when a K is in a good % of your preflop 3b range? (unless you 3b a bunch). Also, not many draws on the board and a K also very much in the range of your opp, so I'd think it is a good spot to check behind with a hand that has good equity.

On the turn there are more AK,KQ,KJ,KTs combos in his range than TT-77, so if it was me I would also check behind here (pls say why this is stupid, because I am bad a turn play). Also does he raise with 77-TT when he may think he has decent showdown value?

River call if you think he is bluffing enough.

(I don't play 25NL, so if there is stuff I said above that doesn't make sense, please don't flame and explain why)

[Roid_Rage]

Flop cbet is fine, as is sizing. He's peeling 77-TT, maybe AQ, obviously AK.

Turn when he c/mr I think he might be attacking our weak sizing even though its a bad card for us to barrel (doubt he realizes this, but idk worth mentioning.) He can easily be minraising 77-TT because he has our range crushed and we're probably 3betting AK/KQ to which he can fold easily.

On the river, he's probably shoving KQ/AK, 77-TT.

77-TT = 24 combos
KQ/AK = 16 combos.

Hero has like $10 remaining in a $30 pot on the river, this has to be call if you call turn, but I think you said that already.

You can nitpick and say 'but what if he minraises KQ/AK and only 88-TT, or 99-TT?' Well fuck you, its still a call.

Pot odds bitches.

[oskar]

How many hands do you have on him? Has he stepped out of line post flop before? Have you seen him c/minraise or minraise postflop before?
Even with a high call 3b% I wouldn't make his range too wide as most 3b pots at 6m are between a LP open and the blinds or the btn. UTG vs MP ranges should be a lot tighter and you shouldn't rely on stats as much.

Without any notes: stats don't look lag tard ish. lagg yes - not necessarily tard.
Turn sizing really doesn't look bluffy. it looks like he wants you to commit with your pp's. - Decide whether you want to call a river barrel on the turn. Call turn / fold river seems bad in any case. Probably fold turn without much post flop history.

Guys I have no idea why you expect to see 77-TT here like ever.

[Donachello]

^ assume for this scenario he will flat 3bets OOP with all PP under QQ

[unclesteve]

I like the 3b pre against this player.

I can' see him minraising here as a bluff, such a dry brd where our range looks nutted and he reps very little.

I'd fold turn and not tell anyone about it.

Obv this will change w/reads, more stats and an idea of how he plays, I'd make a note here defn.

[couriermike]

Preflop is good. On the flop, I'd probably check it back and play the JJ like a bluff-catcher, or possibly bet bigger and do a one-and-done. Versus a maniac ip with less than tp, keeping the pot small and getting to showdown is a good strategy. I don't get the point of the half pot bets unless you're trying to induce a raise which I doubt you are with your hand. As played, if you don't believe him on the turn, of course we're calling the river getting 4:1 with over half our stack in.

[Roid_Rage]

1/2 pot or slightly more bets are completely standard in a 3bet pot. What would you bet with AK? AA? QQ? Axs?

It should all be around the same so you're not giving up a ton of information to villains. It's not as big a deal vs unknowns, but its still fine to bet 1/2 pot as it allows stacks to get in while 100bb deep.

[oskar]

^ assume for this scenario he will flat 3bets OOP with all PP under QQ

That makes his potential bluffing range smaller in this case cos I don't agree that an unnkown will turn 2nd pair into a bluff here with a significant frequency.

I like the turn bet btw cos he should continue calling with 2nd pair hands. I'm still a nit and fold to the minraise cos of the lack of a semi bluffing range. Sometimes someone will go crazy with AQ or 78s here but I'd want a little bit more history to support that. - plus you usually won't get minraised on the turn as a bluff. Even less if you're IP.

[Donachello]

Cool, I agree with the majority that this should be a fold on the turn so as to not commit myself to calling the river. Thanks for the input.

fwiw he flipped 66 for the boat.

[unclesteve]

Preflop is good. On the flop, I'd probably check it back and play the JJ like a bluff-catcher, or possibly bet bigger and do a one-and-done. Versus a maniac ip with less than tp, keeping the pot small and getting to showdown is a good strategy.

we lose lots of value by ckbking here imo, from basically his entire range, I don;t think he'll ever fold this flop.

And taking a 'one and done' approach when we crush his range is just burning money.

Keeping the pot small against a maniac isn't a good strat, it's a reduced variance strategy, which is fine if that's your goal...

[couriermike]

we lose lots of value by ckbking here imo, from basically his entire range, I don;t think he'll ever fold this flop.

And taking a 'one and done' approach when we crush his range is just burning money.

Keeping the pot small against a maniac isn't a good strat, it's a reduced variance strategy, which is fine if that's your goal...

Trying to extract alot of value and win a big pot with second pair to the board is not good. I disagree that villain c/c's his entire range on this flop. When you 3-bet pre and c-bet a dry K-high flop and he calls, alot of his range is Kx or better. We're not ahead of his range once he calls the flop, and giving up after that is entirely reasonable. When we check it back he still has his wide 3-bet calling range. The only downside is giving a free card to Qx or Ax hands. So meh.

And keeping the pot small with a weak made hand is really a good idea against anyone, since the bigger the pot, the more often you're beat.

[Roid_Rage]

You're completely missing the point of daven's post couriermike.

[couriermike]

You're completely missing the point of daven's post couriermike.

Which post are you talking about? Unclesteve's? Daven didn't post in this thread.

[couriermike]

You're completely missing the point of daven's post couriermike.

If you're talking about unclesteve, I didn't miss his point. His point is bad. We c-bet, got called, and were crushed. Trying to 'extract further value' is spew. Doing a one-and-done when you're likely to fold worse and only get called by better is totally fine because it takes down dead money and avoids reverse implied odds. That, or checking behind to keep his range wide. Barreling is just giving it away.

[Roid_Rage]

Ugh my bad, I thought I seen daven's name lol.

It's not spew to cbet this flop since we're getting value from tons of pocket pairs that aren't folding with only one over on the board.

On the turn, it only gets better since he's going to be more suspicious of us having a K since the board paired and he'll be more likely to continue with his PPs. Once he minraises, its fine to fold. Bet/folding is going to be one of your most profitable plays at the micros.

Stop trying to act like barreling this turn is such a bad thing, the only bad thing that happened was hero bet/called, which a lot of people would do during the hand if they weren't planning their hand properly.

[Roid_Rage]

I was probably overly optimistic when I said call turn, call river and I can admit that, but there is abso nothing wrong with bet/folding this turn.

That said, checking this card back and calling any bet from him on the river is good, but if he checks the river again we obviously have to bet it for value, and is arguably the better option.

I don't hate either line.

[Imthenewfish]

prolly check back flop and just try to get value on turn/river. As played thats a pretty good card to barrel for the reason you said and i agree that it should have been a little larger. He's like never bluffing with this line so prolly just fold to his minraise

[Imthenewfish]

I was probably overly optimistic when I said call turn, call river and I can admit that, but there is abso nothing wrong with bet/folding this turn.

That said, checking this card back and calling any bet from him on the river is good, but if he checks the river again we obviously have to bet it for value, and is arguably the better option.

I don't hate either line.

What types of hands will decide to bluff river if we check turn?

[Roid_Rage]

It's not that he's bluffing but he can/will c/c 77-TT on this flop, so he can bet those + sets + Kx for value, so unless he grossly overbets the pot, we can make a pretty +EV call with our 2nd pair.

66 = 3 combos
77-TT = 24 combos
QQ = 6 combos
AK/KQ/KJs = 18 combos

51 combos total, 24 of which we beat.

We need to be getting about 1:1 on our money so... snap river? When we check back turn, the pot is still $9.85, he's probably going to bet more than $6-8, which we can call profitably.

[oskar]

Saying that he can c/r 77-TT for value on the turn implies that we're calling with any Ace high. Realistically he's never going to be ahead when called, so he can't bet those for value. It's true that some guys will do that but they probably don't know why they're doing it and we can't expect them to do that all the time with all of their range. You can say: ok, I've seen this a lot, so I will add 77-88 to his range. That's good if that's your observation. But just because there's a chance that he might sometimes do that with those hands doesn't mean we can put all of those hands in his range.

[oskar]

Again about the value bet on the turn: betting for thin value when the top card pairs is almost always good because inexperienced players don't expect you to value bet thin there because they wouldn't. They think you either have a K or a bluff and tend to look you up with almost anything.

[Donachello]

This spot brings up an important thing about bet sizing as well I think. While my bet size probably gets an extremely wide range to call it also puts me at a harder decision when I get c/r'd. In this instance if I had made it like 5.50 it still gets almost the same range to call but due to it's bigger size make the c/r easier to fold to.

Thus, betting bigger can give you an easier fold in spots where it may be harder to do so.

[unclesteve]

If you're talking about unclesteve, I didn't miss his point. His point is bad. We c-bet, got called, and were crushed. Trying to 'extract further value' is spew. Doing a one-and-done when you're likely to fold worse and only get called by better is totally fine because it takes down dead money and avoids reverse implied odds. That, or checking behind to keep his range wide. Barreling is just giving it away.

I don't agree that we're crushed, this is a brd we cbet with our entire range, that's why I think he'll calll his entire range to make a move later. Maybe this depends on dynamics/villains image of us/how he plays in 3BPs, but in a vaccuum I don't expect to ever get folds on this brd, the only K we have is AK,KK and obv AA, that's a pretty narrow range for a lag to give us credit for, so I think he'll peel often.

I disagree he only folds worse and calls better on the turn, as already said he can c/c TT-77 all day on this turn card, although he prolly folds most of his crap coz we won't be barrelling this card with our bluffs, like, ever.

Also, how can you say we can ckbk to keep his range wide when you've advocated already that his range has us crushed? This doesn't make sense to me at all....

I think I like a ckbk here more and more after thinking about it, he'll lead lots of rivers with any Ax, and c/c PPs, we're only gettting 2streets anyway and don't have anything to protect from (no draws)

ckbk turn is good imo.

[unclesteve]

prolly check back flop and just try to get value on turn/river. As played thats a pretty good card to barrel for the reason you said and i agree that it should have been a little larger. He's like never bluffing with this line so prolly just fold to his minraise

I don't like ckbk flop coz our hand looks like exactly waht it is and it's hard to get 2streets from TT-77 this way. Also, w/o knowing his barrelling tendencies, we're often gonna have a sick decision on the river when he dbl barrels

[kfaess]

Like the way you played it if you folded river instead of calling. I think if he's bluffing the turn and we call his raise, he's going to be pretty scared we have a K ourselves and I think he's going to shut down on the river often. I think he's hardly ever bluffing river when he does this, and we're not ahead of any of his value range.

I like the flop cbet but I also think checking back is fine. imo one thing we should be considering is how often we are going to get outdrawn if we check back flop. With JJ on a K high flop we're not going to get outdrawn that often so I think I like a check behind better with JJ than say, 99.

[Outlaw]

Looks like an easy spot to pot control turn.

1. How does your hand look to villain?
2. What range will he call with on turn vs river?
3. What range will he turn into a bluff on the river and lead out?

His turn line screams set that is excited about you repping a king.. its a snap fold on his minraise.

[spoonitnow]

If you pot control the turn you can induce on the river and just call again for most pot control.

[JoeHaw]

if he calls turn are we c/f'ing river? (unless the bet is small obv)

[Roid_Rage]

Is hard to c/f river when we're IP.