12+1 90man KO facing over bet

[fulksy]

player is a huge donk, couple hands back he raised UTG +1 i 3 bet shoved 14BB with JJ and he snapped with KJo. has been in most pots and seems all round terrible.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 13 Tournament, 120/240 Blinds 25 Ante (9 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 (t6880)
MP3 (t7135)
Hero (CO) (t6818)
Button (t2674)
SB (t2750)
BB (t8179)
UTG (t3825)
UTG+1 (t6470)
MP1 (t3519)

Hero's M: 11.65

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, A
5 folds, Hero bets t545, 2 folds, BB calls t305

Flop: (t1435) 8, 8, 9 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t960, BB calls t960

Turn: (t3355) K (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (t3355) K (2 players)
BB bets t3355,Hero?

edit: guess not really over bet,

[fjuanl]

I'd like either pot cbetting to jam blank turns or something like 600 instead. As played I call because players like this defend with almost ATC and theres lots of missed straight draws. BB also might not bet so big on river with 8x

[drmcboy]

I'd call as played and would bet turn.

[fulksy]

K i called and he had something stupid don't even think a gutshot. If i bet the turn he's probably folding all air here but checking back gave him a chance to bluff, so i know this is being results oriented but against a stupid lag player like this is could it be better to check turn planning on calling most rivers. also my thinking at the time was if i bet turn and he did call (which he could with any draw) i think this type of player might shove river with almost anything (missed draw or made hand). and that would put me in a bad spot.

[drmcboy]

in the OP, you called him a 'huge donk', 'all around terrible' and made no mention of LAG. If he's a station bet the turn, if he bluffs a lot i guess checking is OK but he's taken no aggressive action in the hand so it's hard to understand why you're thinking about him bluffing OTR.

If you think he'll call a bet with lots of draws and then always shove whether or not he gets there I'm sure you know what do to. yes, sometimes he'll show you an 8 or will have made it there. He may be hoping you take one more stab on the turn and he can c/shove his T7 and your play will result in giving a free card where you could have got him in as a 3/1 dog for all the money.

If you're saying he'll bluff with a frequency that will put you in bad spots, again your read is way off because that's not what all around bad players do.

To me you're not even being 'properly' results oriented because if you'd bet the turn he may have called or raised with his something stupid and you'd have made even more.

[fulksy]

i mentioned he raised KJo utg +1 and called my shove, seems pretty "all round bad" and "stupid Laggy" i guess i should of described him better, as iirc he was raising lots of pots and then calling 3 bets with garbage. cant a player be laggy by opening a lot and c betting a lot etc., but also somewhat of a call station by calling 3 bets with garbage pre and by calling with out the right odds when a player reraises his cbets and such, cause that's the type of player he was and why i described him as "all round terrible"

If you're saying he'll bluff with a frequency that will put you in bad spots, again your read is way off because that's not what all around bad players do.

i find tons of bad players chase draws miss and think o shit i spewed a ton of chips i need to bluff here, whether or not they can represent anything. this just seems like a spot were they can unknowingly represent a big hand. that said i think your %100 right, and that betting turn allows him to raise or call with a draw, or air. i think i posted this because a big leak in my game is i have a bad habit of pot controlling on turn, and calling bets on river. I'm missing a lot of value on turns as well i find that quite a bit i let them hit the river (for free) and end up paying them off.

To me you're not even being 'properly' results oriented because if you'd bet the turn he may have called or raised with his something stupid and you'd have made even more.

i can't remember exactly what he had but i think in this hand he would of folded turn, but checking allowed him to bluff river. i know my reasoning for thinking this is wrong as i guess i didn't have sufficient enough reads to make that assumption, and in general betting turn is much better.

thanks for the help.

[baudib]

fulks if you bet turn and he jams river are you folding when he reps nothing?

[drmcboy]

player is a huge donk, couple hands back he raised UTG +1 i 3 bet shoved 14BB with JJ and he snapped with KJo. has been in most pots and seems all round terrible.

i mentioned he raised KJo utg +1 and called my shove, seems pretty "all round bad" and "stupid Laggy"

I guess you mean opening KJo makes him LAG and leads you to assume he'll bluff a lot of rivers? It's kinda aggro but this is a top 15% hand. I don't think this should override the fact that you have top pair vs a guy who calls a lot.

If I'm reading the rest correctly, you're saying he would call with nothing OTF then bluff river, but never call with nothing OTT then bluff the river. It is possible that he's reverse floating, but that is an amazingly specific action to assign this terrible player who probably has never ever planned a hand over multiple streets. If you start thinking bad players will accidentally play great your tables are going to look really tough.

Don't forget that nothing is a small part of his range - most of it is draws and worse nines and low PPs and you for sure want to bet vs most of that.

[fulksy]

That makes alot of sense, thanks. that's a problem i have giving bad players credit for making good plays when it's more then likely exactly what it looks like, a worse 9, a draw, or pp, all of which i should value bet the turn against, and most likely call on a blank river.

@ baudib, I see your point, he could rep an 8 but that's such a small part of his range that I need to call and betting turn then calling river is much more profitable.

Thanks hopefully pluged a bit of leak here

[drmcboy]

now the question is, assuming we bet turn, he calls, and he bombs river, what do we consider a blank?

I'd say 2-5 and K-As are easy calls, along with 8-9 ldo

T/J I think we can fold since so many of his draws got home one way or another.

Qs are very marginal but better than T/J

6/7 are iffy also but better cards than Qs. Not sure that he would realize that he doesn't need to bluff Ax.

I think putting our heads down and calling all rivers is probably OK, but my gut says giving up on T/J is better

[fulksy]

yea i agree with that

10/J are the worse cards and i fold them, Q meh, probably call.

thanks again, this actually helped a lot i think

[baudib]

I think it helped me too

I know there are tons of spots where I am losing value by trying to pot control the turn when it's obvious villain's range is MOSTLY draws and "stupid shit."