2 Hands from $26 rush tourney

[dev]

Villain is unknown, cbet/give up?
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 26 Tournament, 150/300 Blinds (9 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t7441)
SB (t11740)
BB (t5320)
UTG (t10253)
UTG+1 (t14165)
MP1 (t13899)
MP2 (t12931)
MP3 (t7266)
Hero (CO) (t15782)

Hero's M: 35.07

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q
2 folds, MP1 bets t750, 2 folds, Hero raises to t1800, 3 folds, MP1 calls t1050

Flop: (t4050) 7, J, K (2 players)
MP1 checks



I think that the Villain in this one is a reg in these tourneys. I have him running at 36/33 over 100, but no notes. We're 3 or 4 eliminations from the bubble and I have an average stack. My first inclination is to shove but I don't know if it's worth the risk here.
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 26 Tournament, 250/500 Blinds 50 Ante (8 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) (t9997)
SB (t20504)
BB (t12007)
UTG (t12063)
UTG+1 (t21153)
MP1 (t9545)
MP2 (t14580)
CO (t19744)

Hero's M: 8.69

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, A
4 folds, CO bets t1000

[baudib]

hand 1
I tend to check behind and call bets on any non-heart turn. if checked to on turn I bet pretty large and give up after that.

hand 2
I'd fold, if we were BB I'd make some sort of move. This is the type of spot that I feel BB is going to gambool up a lot if he doesn't care about bubbling and we're never in good shape multiway with this hand.

[Ghaleon]

hand 1
I tend to check behind and call bets on any non-heart turn.

Why?

I assume that the idea here is that by checking the flop, we are sending the message that we are weak or drawing, thereby allowing him to turn bet with a much wider range of hands, many of which we beat. I get that. Also, it increases the probability of a c/c on the river.

But why wouldn't we be better off finding out now? I mean, his range here includes ALOT more than just two hearts. By betting the flop we can force him to define his hand and we can narrow his range. By checking behind on the flop, we widen his betting range.

[drmcboy]

1) I don't like 3 bet. As played I'd see the turn.

@ Ghaleon - him widening his turn betting range is good. If he has a bare heart, he might c/r on the flop, but by checking flop we are guaranteed to get to the river for 1 bet. Flop bet doesn't really narrow his range if he raises since he could even do that with air, and if he calls we still don't know if he has Kx or hearts.

2) I'd shove or raise to 3k depending on reads on blinds.

This is the type of spot that I feel BB is going to gambool up a lot if he doesn't care about bubbling

why?

[Ghaleon]

I'm still not getting it. Didn't I learn in Poker 101 that letting my opponent draw for free is bad? The ONLY things we're beating here is a flush draw or a complete bluff. Since we bet pre-flop, his check on the flop doesn't mean anything really. even if he has a hand, he would check, assuming that we would bet. If he check-raises us, then there is a VERY GOOD chance he has the ace of hearts, 77, JJ, Kx or a made flush, and we should fold, and live to play another hand. Air is such a tiny portion of his range, that I would let him win this pot and move on with my life while I still have 30+BB's in my stack.

But if he has a heart draw, a pocket pair, 89, 9T, Jx, or 7x, all we are doing is giving him free cards to hit his outs. Whereas our hand has almost NO chance of improving (the Qc is the only card I like). So why not find out where we are now? If he just calls, we can narrow his range Kx or a heart draw. That should still get us to showdown without any further betting a huge percentage of the time, right?

[drmcboy]

Yes, you learned that in poker 101, just like you learn in history 101 that the civil war (american) was 'about' slavery. Then you find out there were lots of reasons we had the war, and slavery was wrapped in some of them but not all. If they could teach everything you needed to know in the first class they wouldn't call it 101.

There are negatives to giving free cards but if you bet every time to avoid giving free cards you'll be getting c/r a ton, missing spots to pick off bluffs, bloating pots with hands do not merit big pots, etc.

Why would Kx check the river if you bet the flop then check back the turn? It may happen but I would not expect it if the board runs out with no hearts or BWs.

Even if he never c/r the flop with air, you won't know when he's decided to (semi) bluff and when he's value betting no matter what street it is, so you don't really gain any info by betting the flop. Except that if he folds, he had 5 outs or less. Of course if you somehow knew your opponent would never bluff you'd just go ahead and try to take it down, but there is no reason to think that here.


you're getting a free card against Kx & JJ which he has a lot more than gutters and small pairs given the action pre flop. and the hands you have crushed might decide to take a stab on the turn/river but will fold now.


You line also seems to assume that he'll always call on the flop with his non Ax flush draws, but if he raises you will have taken a spot where you could have gotten to the turn with a smaller pot where you can pick off a bluff or value bet by Jx, into a larger pot where you don't even see the turn.


Assuming you had decided to 3 bet with it pre, would you c-bet with 99 or 22 here?

[baudib]

Ghaleon, getting to the turn and having a blank peel off changes our equity so much it's suicidal to bet this flop.

If we're behind we're drawing dead and if we're ahead it's usually not by much and we risk giving up our ~48% equity to those hands that will almost always check-raise this flop. But if the turn brings a 3s we go from flipping with Ahxx to being a 2-1 favorite and we let him have a turn bluff range instead of reducing his continuing range to hands that have us crushed/flipping with us.

another part of Poker 101: keep the pot small with small hands. We have a small hand here.

[fjuanl]

Id way rather have K9s in hand 2. Probably still shove this given it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to be opening around 50% of hands based on HUD and the bubble situation. Not really concerned about bubbling when a spot this good comes up (assuming his range isn't far off from my guess)

Hand 1 was already covered, I agree about checking back

[baudib]

why?

Just seems like a good squeeze spot. CO is extremely active (36/33) and BTN is shortstacked, if BTN shoves/3-bets BB can isolate and CO will fold a ton. It's a good spot to get it in with like JTs IMO and BB doesn't even get eliminated if he loses to BTN.

[drmcboy]

sorry, still not understanding - he should jam JTs to isolate BTN? with 20BBs? why?

[drmcboy]

and why does having 4 BBs left over matter?

[baudib]

let's say you are in BB with a top 20-25% hand, does this not feel like a spot where both CO and BTN may be light and you can play a huge pot HU (CO folds a ton after 2 jams) with decent equity and dead money. I think JTs ish is good enough, KQ would feel like the stone-cold nuts here.

[drmcboy]

you're a 60/40 dog vs the top 20, a small dog with KQ. I don't get it, but even if you do there is no reason to think BB thinks this way.

[chardrian]

Hand 1 - check back.

Hand 2 - meh. making the money has value, but it has more value on stars then it does on tilt and on tilt the blinds and antes eat away at you quicker. Since you have almost 20 BBs I am fine with you giving up this spot and securing the money. I am also fine with you attacking this spot and either shoving or raising to 3-3.3k.