qq vs 4bet

[Zorkion]

Merge - $0.04 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 119 BB (VPIP: 46.94, PFR: 8.16, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 50)
Hero (BB): 160.25 BB
UTG: 131.75 BB (VPIP: 18.37, PFR: 12.24, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 49)
UTG+1: 93.75 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 10.34, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 87)
UTG+2: 96 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
MP: 94.25 BB (VPIP: 39.62, PFR: 22.64, 3Bet Preflop: 15.79, Hands: 53)
MP+1: 37 BB (VPIP: 25.16, PFR: 9.08, 3Bet Preflop: 1.30, Hands: 646)
CO: 62 BB (VPIP: 23.46, PFR: 12.42, 3Bet Preflop: 3.51, Hands: 163)
BTN: 34 BB (VPIP: 10.94, PFR: 6.63, 3Bet Preflop: 1.11, Hands: 792)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q Q

fold, UTG+1 calls 1 BB, UTG+2 raises to 4.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 18.5 BB, fold, UTG+2 raises to 44 BB, Hero?


anybody finding a fold here? also, thoughts on 3bet sizing?

[MadMojoMonkey]

UTG+2: 96 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)

Not folding. Either jam now or call and jam on flops w/o A or K. This is too small a sample to be folding QQ.

If those stats were the same after a couple hundred hands, then EZ fold.

[daven]

3b smaller, fold as played

[Zorkion]

3b smaller, fold as played

when you say smaller...how small do you mean?

[baudib]

Sample size is LOL but when he's played 6 hands and raised 1, I think that gives you a good indicator of how aggressive he is. This type of passive player is uber common at micros, I think this is a standard fold vs. this player at 4 NL.

[rong]

If its a fold then the 3b is the problem. If we assume the stats are accurate enough to work from, the 0% 3b and 30/5 (w/e) means he has a really tight raising range and is unlikely to be raising the utg limp wide to exploit. So we're prob looking at a raising range of something like jj+, AK. This means that when you 3b any 4b has your QQ crushed and you have little incentive to bluff as he prob 4b kk+ and calls jj-qq, AK. So just call and see a flop with your QQ. Prob call kk too. Raise AA for value. Maybe call 77+ for set value and fold everything else.

[griffey24]

I realllly don't like 3b/fold here. You're essentially turning QQ into a bluff. You could have any two cards here and it would be the same difference.

The only spot I like 3b/folding value hands is if we have VERY strong reads that villain is some loose whale who CALLS a ton of 3bets and rarely 4b. Then our 3b is for value against his calling range, but could MAYBE fold vs his 4b range.

In this spot, without reads, I'm 3b/5b or 3b/flat 4b or just flatting pre, whatever you're most comfortable with.

[Zorkion]

If its a fold then the 3b is the problem. If we assume the stats are accurate enough to work from, the 0% 3b and 30/5 (w/e) means he has a really tight raising range and is unlikely to be raising the utg limp wide to exploit. So we're prob looking at a raising range of something like jj+, AK. This means that when you 3b any 4b has your QQ crushed and you have little incentive to bluff as he prob 4b kk+ and calls jj-qq, AK. So just call and see a flop with your QQ. Prob call kk too. Raise AA for value. Maybe call 77+ for set value and fold everything else.

this seems like the sort of play that has gotten me in trouble in the past. eg., ill call the 4b, and be totally lost on the flop, and oop. does any flop help? i mean, if it comes rags, its no help, if it comes axx,kxx, or jxx its no help, if theres a q, were good unless theres an a or a k. I guess my question here is- what do you think of the postflop playability of this situation?

[rong]

Of 3betting and calling a 4b? Or of just calling the initial raise?

[Zorkion]

yeah, of 3betting and calling a 4b

[surviva316]

Guys, you're allowed to 3b/f for value. For example, it is the super-obvious-I-don't-even-know-what-other-line-you-could-take-that-you-would-think-would-even-remotely-make-sense thing to do here.

[surviva316]

You guys must be thinking of situations where villain mostly either 4bs or folds in response to 3bs (lol not the case against a loose passive) or situations where you have a bluffing range to balance (lol REALLY not the case against loose passives).

[griffey24]

Guys, you're allowed to 3b/f for value. For example, it is the super-obvious-I-don't-even-know-what-other-line-you-could-take-that-you-would-think-would-even-remotely-make-sense thing to do here.

Hero has 18 hands on villain (ie no reads). The default play here should definitely not be to 3b/fold. Sure if you know villain is 51/5 and calls 95% of 3b, then by all means, but we don't know that here.

[surviva316]

It's a small sample, but it's a game of imperfect information. Villain isn't bought in for full, and he's played 6/18 and has raised only 1 of those times. I don't feel like doing the math, but Bayes Theorem would have it as extremely unlikely that this is the type of villain who plays 4b or fold in response to a 3b. If you run this situation a million times, he'll flat plenty enough times for us to justify 3bing for value.