Overpair, 2-tone flop gets raised

[BorisTheSpider]

This hand is a spot that I find comes up quite often. It probably doesn't make a ton of difference whether I hold JJ or QQ here, maybe even KK, it's fundamentally the same spot. I hate playing overpairs against aggro regs on 2-tone flops.

Generally, I'm folding. Villain here is 21/15 with 8% 3bet over 220 hands, has highish AF on the flop and turn and seems moderately tight and aggressive. Standard reg IOW.

Is folding here too nitty? Should I call and re-eval the turn?

What about if we were only 100bb deep? Are you more inclined to go with it then?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BTN: $28.29 (113.2 bb)
SB: $32.49 (130 bb)
Hero (BB): $84.31 (337.2 bb)
UTG: $43.60 (174.4 bb)
MP: $41.53 (166.1 bb)
CO: $30.82 (123.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J J
UTG folds, MP raises to $0.75, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, MP calls $1.75

Flop: ($5.10) 9 7 T (2 players)
Hero bets $4.50, MP raises to $11.50

[abelardx]

If he only does this with hh overs, sets, and overpairs, then we're flipping or crushed. He has to have a fair number of Tx in his range to continue here.

[griffey24]

This deep I'm probably flatting JJ a fair bit with these stacks vs these positions. What is your plan versus a 4b?

Only 3betting if villain is a big whale. As played, meh fold I suppose.

[BorisTheSpider]

This deep I'm probably flatting JJ a fair bit with these stacks vs these positions. What is your plan versus a 4b?

Well I should probably be flatting a bit more OOP then, but I hate it - I guess I've just got to learn to lump it when it's the right thing to do. Right now, I'm probably always 3betting this.

Planning on folding to a 4bet, unless it's so small (and we're deep enough) that I can call and c/f flop unless I hit a set.

[griffey24]

Well I should probably be flatting a bit more OOP then, but I hate it - I guess I've just got to learn to lump it when it's the right thing to do. Right now, I'm probably always 3betting this.

Planning on folding to a 4bet, unless it's so small (and we're deep enough) that I can call and c/f flop unless I hit a set.

It's one thing to hate calling this, but you should DEFINITELY hate 3b/folding this cause you might as well have 72o and 3b and then fold cause it's the same difference if villain might 4b you often here.

If villain is good/aggro then he'll realize that this deep you will have a hard time combating 4b, and he'll be 4b you MORE often than 100bb stacks if anything.

What's the major fear of flatting OOP exactly? I mean you seem content bloating a pot OOP, so I don't see why you can't play a single raised pot OOP?

[BorisTheSpider]

What's the major fear of flatting OOP exactly? I mean you seem content bloating a pot OOP, so I don't see why you can't play a single raised pot OOP?

LOL, you make a good point - I don't exactly seem afraid of getting myself in some tough spots OOP sometimes when I bloat the pot preflop, do I.

I think it's playing OOP without the initiative - I probably feel like if I 3bet pre, I either take it down which is good, or I play postflop with the initiative rather than reactively.

[griffey24]

So suppose you flat OOP, pot is $1.60, board is AdTh4c and you don't have initiative.
Or.. you 3b OOP, pot is $5.10, board is AdTh4c and you DO have initiative..

which do you prefer?

[BorisTheSpider]

So suppose you flat OOP, pot is $1.60, board is AdTh4c and you don't have initiative.
Or.. you 3b OOP, pot is $5.10, board is AdTh4c and you DO have initiative..

which do you prefer?

Yeah, point taken. So generally, against reggish opponents, I want to be 3betting a more polarised range OOP, and have only a few bluffs except where people fold an exploitable amount.

[Pelion]

Generally, I much prefer 3betting a merged range out of position and a polarised range in position. This is because the other guy is much more likely to call with medium-strong hands when he is in position, and much more likely to play 4bet or fold when he is out of position.

Hands like KQ, JJ etc. play pretty well as 3bets when you are OOP since it is likely villains will call with worse.

I can understand griffey's point here as the opener is MP so he is likely to be quite strong, and we have the BB so we are likely to want to flat pretty wide (which our stronger hands will provide cover for). However, if we are in the SB and villain is opening from a later position and not super-tight I certainly think we can 3bet hands like TT/JJ/KQ for value since the opener is likely to open/call fairly wide, and we don't really want to give the BB a chance to either squeeze or call and leave us OOP 3 way.

I'm interested to hear if you disagree with this griffey.

[griffey24]

I guess it really depends on villain. In my games if I try to 3b too much when stacks get 130ish+ deep, then the frequency of being 4b seems to go way up. So in this situation, I don't think their stack off range warrants 5b JJ, so now we're forced to either fold JJ (which is lame, if their bluffing frequency goes up) or flat the 4b OOP which also isn't ideal.

Stack sizes are my main concern here. Playing deep OOP sucks. I'd rather keep the pot small'ish and have a stronger flatting range in this spot, but that's just my preference. It can't be bad to 3b from blinds vs an LP opener with JJ, but you just have to be ready to flat a 4b deep OOP if you get 4b.

[Carroters]

I think just refraining from bloating pots oop deep with marginal value hands is a pretty safe rule of thumb. I'm flatting here all day long.