[MM Sunday Storm] JJ vs EP shove

[Cobra_1878]

I was relatively new to the table. Only had 25 hands on villain and he was running at 21/18.

Fairly close to bubble, 7,500 left with 6,600 getting paid.

PokerStars - $10+$1|800/1600 Ante 160 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+2: 19,034
MP: 46,316
Hero (MP+1): 33,254
CO: 12,078
BTN: 36,846
SB: 7,969
BB: 15,949
UTG: 53,709
UTG+1: 29,052

9 players post ante of 160, SB posts SB 800, BB posts BB 1,600

Pre Flop: (pot: 3,840) Hero has J J

fold, fold, UTG+2 raises to 18,874 and is all-in, fold, Hero ???

[OngBonga]

I'd want to call but with so many left to act behind, one of which has us covered, I think I just throw this away.

You did better than me in this game.

[drmcboy]

high 5 monitor, shove.

[Cobra_1878]

high 5 monitor, shove.

Hoping to see what? TT?

[drmcboy]

I would go ahead and hope for JT.

He should be shoving around 55+ QJs+ but probably jams any pair, flip hands, maybe a couple Axs you are ahead of. Also, he almost never jams AA and often will open smaller with QQ+.

I doubt I am ever folding JJ to a 12 BB open jam, but against someone who is on the aggro side, this is not even close.

I just noticed the 'close to the bubble' comment - first, there are still 900 people to go! Second, even if you are nitting it up, you should not assume someone playing 21/18 is also.

If this is about not wanting to flip or such nonsense, it's a donkament, they are coin flips. You have to beat 7k people , it will be the first of maaany and you're a huge dog to win them all.

[Cobra_1878]

I would go ahead and hope for JT.

He should be shoving around 55+ QJs+ but probably jams any pair, flip hands, maybe a couple Axs you are ahead of. Also, he almost never jams AA and often will open smaller with QQ+.

I doubt I am ever folding JJ to a 12 BB open jam, but against someone who is on the aggro side, this is not even close.

I just noticed the 'close to the bubble' comment - first, there are still 900 people to go! Second, even if you are nitting it up, you should not assume someone playing 21/18 is also.

If this is about not wanting to flip or such nonsense, it's a donkament, they are coin flips. You have to beat 7k people , it will be the first of maaany and you're a huge dog to win them all.

That seems a really wide range for an EP shove. Also, 900 people really isn't that much, players were dropping at a quick rate.

[Savy]

I'd want to call but with so many left to act behind, one of which has us covered, I think I just throw this away.

You did better than me in this game.

Everyone left to act apart from the btn has less chips that the original shover. Just because BTN can call and knock us out doesn't mean he will. If anything the average player will be really tight in that spot (which is probably correctish) because he'll be just as worried about us knocking him out.

I do think drm's range is going to be off here though, I'd expect to see lots more Ax & PP type stuff before he shoves QJs. Lots of KTs+ stuff too probably. What's actually correct to shove in that spot I have no idea though.

tl;dr it's a call I don't love making but I'm pretty sure it's not even close to being a fold.

@Cobra - We are playing to win most of the time, we don't need to be worried about the bubble.

[Cobra_1878]

Everyone left to act apart from the btn has less chips that the original shover. Just because BTN can call and knock us out doesn't mean he will. If anything the average player will be really tight in that spot (which is probably correctish) because he'll be just as worried about us knocking him out.

I do think drm's range is going to be off here though, I'd expect to see lots more Ax & PP type stuff before he shoves QJs. Lots of KTs+ stuff too probably. What's actually correct to shove in that spot I have no idea though.

tl;dr it's a call I don't love making but I'm pretty sure it's not even close to being a fold.

@Cobra - We are playing to win most of the time, we don't need to be worried about the bubble.

I realize that but I think being close to the bubble is a factor that still needs to be considered.

[Savy]

I realize that but I think being close to the bubble is a factor that still needs to be considered.

Sorry that was missing the explanation.

The closer we get to the bubble the more important it becomes, at the start of a tournament (if it's deep enough) games are basically the same as cash games. Then when the bubble does come into effect what you need to be thinking of really is calling shoves from big stacks with "tight" ranges and shoving wide in the opposite scenario. We don't want to put ourselves in a situation where we cripple ourselves chip wise right before the bubble. Apart from that we don't really need to mind too much (obviously if you're playing MTT's seriously you do).

So in this spot there isn't really anything we need to worry about and we should just treat it like we need enough equity to call in a cash game. If there were lots of big stacks left to act behind you who were all far too loose it may become a fold but apart from that I can't see any reason we'd want to fold in a spot similar to this.

Even if you lose this you still have 8bb and the blinds are far enough away from you. You also have lots of people short to act behind you which is fantastic for shoving if the btn is quite tight.

[drmcboy]

my range is a bit tighter than the one from Kill Everyone (55+, AJo+ A9s+ KQo, K9s+ QTs+, JTs T9s - 12 %) which has equilibrium shove charts. Since someone in this thread suggested folding JJ here, he should be shoving even wider and raping the "bubble" because the chart assumes people call optimally, whereas folding JJ is less than optimal and closer to taking your chips and throwing them off the table. they also have calling charts - even UTG+1, you can call a 6M shove with 99+.

But you can ignore all that - there are 3 hands you don't want to see, unless you think he's not shoving 6 hands you do (55-TT) (which is just not based in logic) you have a great spot even accounting for someone behind you waking up.

My copy of KE says it was $30, everyone ITT wanting to fold should save up however many BIs that is for you and buy it instead or do something else to learn pre flop strategy. Until you do, I hope you find a lot of bullets.

[dombo]

Agree I play this here all day long

DRMCBOY you know a place where I can find that kill everyone chart?

[Renton]

Clear call. I think you're in a tough spot with AJ suited or 88, but I'm fistpumping this with 99+ AQ+.