Russians vs. Americans: A Werewolf Game for October 2015

[Luco]

Riiiiiiight...

Anyways, I loved the ITA. Great idea. Would do again. Would follow instructions next time lol

I liked the ITAs

How were the ITAs for you, rilla?

[BankItDrew]

Wtf does ITA stand for?

In-Thread Assassin?
I Touch Assholes?
Italy?

Seriously, I have no idea.

[Luco]

I agree with baud btw, ong / boog / bid were all posting very very well and could have sailed this without going so HARD TO THE PAINT on D1. I mean, you forced so much discussion around yourselves there

Also, when it was boog vs batm why didn't you just push for batm? why the fps counterclaim? smh

[a500lbgorilla]

I liked the ITAs

How were the ITAs for you, rilla?

[Luco]

Wtf does ITA stand for?

In-Thread Assassin?
I Touch Assholes?
Italy?

Seriously, I have no idea.

in thread attack

[Hoopy]

I enjoyed following this game and occasionally counting votes.

WP everyone, especially ungbungu.

[BankItDrew]

I agree with baud btw, ong / boog / bid were all posting very very well and could have sailed this without going so HARD TO THE PAINT on D1. I mean, you forced so much discussion around yourselves there

Also, when it was boog vs batm why didn't you just push for batm? why the fps counterclaim? smh

Yeah we fucked up.

Too much bussing.
Too much ITA'ing each other.
Too much anti-wolf action vs wolves.

It was ridiculous.

[baudib]

ITAs - In-Thread Attacks. I'm pretty sure I explained that somewhere. Drew, you should read mod posts when it comes to new mechanics.

I agree with baud btw, ong / boog / bid were all posting very very well and could have sailed this without going so HARD TO THE PAINT on D1. I mean, you forced so much discussion around yourselves there

Also, when it was boog vs batm why didn't you just push for batm? why the fps counterclaim? smh

Ong+BooG probably had a legit 25-35% chance of winning if BATM gets lynched there. Drew was also still alive.

When Drew gets lynched and BooG is stuck with a bad claim it's probably down to 3%

[BankItDrew]

ITAs - In-Thread Attacks. I'm pretty sure I explained that somewhere. Drew, you should read mod posts when it comes to new mechanics.

Oh stfu baudib

Thanks, Luco

[baudib]

My admissions: I seethed all game. I wanted to type in all caps: HEY GUYS HOW ABOUT WE KILL A VILLAGER

I secretly wanted to find a way to modkill Wuf but that would have hurt the wolves too much.

[Hoopy]

Lets tilt the next game slightly in favour of the wolfies.

[baudib]

Ong will hate me even more now. I just have high expectations.

[Luco]

Ong+BooG probably had a legit 25-35% chance of winning if BATM gets lynched there. Drew was also still alive.

When Drew gets lynched and BooG is stuck with a bad claim it's probably down to 3%

Ong could easily have sat on batm without much suspicion there. Boog could claim self pres and vote batm. When I switched from boog to batm it was actually something that ong posted that made me switch back to boog

[Luco]

I am kinda looking forward to ong & baud having another epic tdome

[lilrascal]

Rascal as you can see my role was prssident, not drago something

I was expecting your role to be Rocky Balboa with the flavor of beating Drago.

[MadMojoMonkey]

On wolfchat:

Learning to sleuth out a group of people's motivations and intentions when you KNOW that at least some of them are FOS is a useful skill to have as a human. Being able to deceive other people when you have contrary interests is also a useful skill.

Learning how to do both effectively is the primary design-concept of Mafia/WW games. Being able to read the wolf-chat after a game helps everyone learn the pros and cons of different strategies.


This is a game. We play it to have fun. Worrying about future wins/losses is dumb.
Reading the wolf-chat after a game is fun. Not being able to read it feels like something has been taken from this game.


Making the rules about future wins and losses makes this a pissing/bragging match and not an opportunity to hone your charisma-based skills.

[GatorJH]

Fantastic game. I look forward to the next one.

Thanks baudib!

This. It was fun subbing in even though I was in a bad spot. In retrospect I should have dropped a couple of fake peeks to make it look like I was subbed in as a seer.

Rascal, I will have to give you WAY more wolf hunting credit in the future. When I discovered the wolves were targeting each other I should have looked at a wider net instead of tinfoiling you. I just felt like I didn't have that much time and didn't want to take time looking at those who were heavily considered villagers.

[GatorJH]

Great game, village. I was buried from the word go. Really strong performance.



Hence, keep the Den private.

We should also delete old games.

I simply ask for an FTR where wolves aren't unmasked and undressed after every game. Where they can scheme and plot without concern for a future audience. Where the mystery that surrounds their actions endures.

Let the wolves be wolves.

I kind of agree with the wolf den stance (not quite so with the past game but meh). In the past I have given my fellow wolves an insight into my strategy as a wolf. When everyone gets to see and reference this it diminishes my ability in the future as everyone has a hard reference. I liken it to a final table reviewing everyone's tells after a poker tournament. It may help the person get rid of a tell but it also takes the game more to a standard game by losing a great bit of uncertainty. I hope that makes some sense.

[Luco]

My head hurts now. I was convinced it was gator but damn, his last few posts are screaming villager

Gator, you said several things this game that have thrown your balanced style out of the window.

This game will be SO HORRENDOUSLY BAD for your meta lol

[OngBonga]

Ong will hate me even more now. I just have high expectations.

Are you kidding? That dead thread read was rather enjoyable. The fact we were a fakeclaim away from winning while playing in a way that outright offended you is just fantatstic.

I think we mostly played fine. Our special hunting definitely could have been much better. But our strategy wasn't nearly as bad as you think it was. We win this with a better fakeclaim strategy, which demonstrates that you're wrong to think our general stragety is so bad.

Next time you're wolf baudib, you show me how not bussing the shit out of the wolves in your team that aren't playing well is going to get you a win. I guarantee that you'll be relying on the village to fuck it up. This village is too strong for that, imo. I wasn't relying on them not being able to figure out who the wolves are through association.

I figured looking like a villager was more important than having a large team. I was right. I was not getting lynched, and I don't get poe'd if we get boog's claim right.

I'm satisfied with the overall team perfeormance, and happy with my performance.

[GatorJH]

Gator, you said several things this game that have thrown your balanced style out of the window.

This game will be SO HORRENDOUSLY BAD for your meta lol

Not necessarily. If I now play this style game as a wolf would that not work to my credit, especially if I have an entire game to work with?

As a side note I have to work on getting better and understanding game mechanics such as when it is or is not beneficial to leave peeks, etc. For example in the dead thread Baud posted that the wolf found the seer and is choosing to not nom him which is the correct play. I can't even begin to figure out why it would be bad to nom the seer before he can confirm lookups.

[GatorJH]

Gator, you said several things this game that have thrown your balanced style out of the window.

This game will be SO HORRENDOUSLY BAD for your meta lol

Btw, I have to try some different methods to see if they work. My balanced style has led to me always getting heat early and often. Hell, even in this game when it should have been obvious I was a villager people were STILL panicked that I could be a wolf.

[OngBonga]

gabe, you were totally the right kill. I hit you because I knew you were special and you had to go for me to win. I didn't known who the seer was, thought it was luco, but recognised that he could be faking. I hit you because the seer couldn't confirm anybody other than a special, I had the luxury of waiting another day for a claim.

[OngBonga]

A key factor in the gabe kill was that I figured gabe was most likely to figure out perfect strategy for the village. It was gabe who sniffed out the epic triple wolf fakeclaim when we tried to nom a wolf.

[GatorJH]

gabe, you were totally the right kill. I hit you because I knew you were special and you had to go for me to win. I didn't known who the seer was, thought it was luco, but recognised that he could be faking. I hit you because the seer couldn't confirm anybody other than a special, I had the luxury of waiting another day for a claim.

Like this. I don't get it. Who wants to tutor me on game mechanics like this using this game as a guide?

[OngBonga]

baudib doesn't want to be a wolf with me because he knows he'll need to play near perfect to avoid me jumping down his throat.

I thought you had high expectations baudib? You should want to be a wolf with me. I only bus wolves that I can't protect.

[OngBonga]

Like this. I don't get it. Who wants to tutor me on game mechanics like this using this game as a guide?

The seer was alternating between alignment and role peeks. I hit gabe on an odd night when the seer was peeking role. Since I'm vanilla, he was no threat to me. He can only confirm the specials, who can self clear anyway. Seer was harmless the night I hit gabe.

Thus, I could afford to wait an extra day for the claim, which proved to be right because my seer pick was wrong.

[Luco]

Not necessarily. If I now play this style game as a wolf would that not work to my credit, especially if I have an entire game to work with?

As a side note I have to work on getting better and understanding game mechanics such as when it is or is not beneficial to leave peeks, etc. For example in the dead thread Baud posted that the wolf found the seer and is choosing to not nom him which is the correct play. I can't even begin to figure out why it would be bad to nom the seer before he can confirm lookups.

I think he said it was correct because their guess at seer was actually wrong?

[OngBonga]

fwiw, my first game wolfing here (I think) was with JV and dropthebanana, and we didn't touch each other all game. We did win, but despite having our entire team alive, we knew that one falling would be catastrophic because our interactions were so weak. We just got that final day mislynch.

It doesn't matter how many wolves there are alive. It's never easy, even when there's plenty. The point is to win, and we came really close here.

[Luco]

Btw, I have to try some different methods to see if they work. My balanced style has led to me always getting heat early and often. Hell, even in this game when it should have been obvious I was a villager people were STILL panicked that I could be a wolf.

It wasn't so much that, it was just that everyone else had loads of things through d1 / d2 to say they're v v likely villager

By the time you were screaming villager I didn't have anywhere else to turn

[OngBonga]

I think he said it was correct because their guess at seer was actually wrong?

Yeah this. It was a risk to go seer hunting when a) seer wasn't dangerous, and b) hitting vanilla was insta loss.

gabe was a safe kill.

[Luco]

Yeah this. It was a risk to go seer hunting when a) seer wasn't dangerous, and b) hitting vanilla was insta loss.

gabe was a safe kill.

Looking at the numbers again ong I think you probably should have just taken a shot at me

I mean, beck missed a lookup and we still cinched it so maybe you were into 'nom seer or we lose' by that point already

[baudib]

Ong, your goal is not to get villa cred or look like a villager. Your goal is to kill villagers. You needed to kill 12-15 villagers this game. How many did you get?

[GatorJH]

Ong, your goal is not to get villa cred or look like a villager. Your goal is to kill villagers. You needed to kill 12-15 villagers this game. How many did you get?

I don't completely agree with this. Yes your goal is to kill villagers, but you have to do this in a manner that doesn't scream "hey I am a wolf just killing villagers". With that said there is a subtle art to targeting your fellow wolves without making it obvious when one or two of them die and to not cause them die needlessly.

In this game I think the wolves may have hurt themselves more with the latter than the former.

And while I agree with Ong that even with the strategy there were very close to winning I do think with just some minor adjustments (like not targeting Aubrey like you did) you could have crushed what was a very good village.

[baudib]

"Hey, I think the guy getting mislynched here is the seer's peek. I'm going to save him!"

-- said no wolf ever until this game

[baudib]

I don't completely agree with this. Yes your goal is to kill villagers, but you have to do this in a manner that doesn't scream "hey I am a wolf just killing villagers". With that said there is a subtle art to targeting your fellow wolves without making it obvious when one or two of them die and to not cause them die needlessly.

In this game I think the wolves may have hurt themselves more with the latter than the former.

And while I agree with Ong that even with the strategy there were very close to winning I do think with just some minor adjustments (like not targeting Aubrey like you did) you could have crushed what was a very good village.

Wolf concession at F9 is not close. This game was a slaughter.

[Luco]

"Hey, I think the guy getting mislynched here is the seer's peek. I'm going to save him!"

-- said no wolf ever until this game

Are you referring to batm possibly being peeked by hifi?

[OngBonga]

Ong, your goal is not to get villa cred or look like a villager. Your goal is to kill villagers. You needed to kill 12-15 villagers this game. How many did you get?

Not quite.

My goal is to win. I can do that by killing villagers AND wolves.

How many do I get dead if I draw this out? I get to f4 here while fucking up our fakeclaim strategy.

luco has a point about beck missing a night. But if boog survives, we kill the healer (by accident, granted), we kill luco and discover he's not seer, and still have two wolves. Boog can then claim seer to draw out the cc.

We messed up with boog's claim, that was the critical point. That was where it becomes a lost cause for us. Until then, so long as I'm not getting lynched or peeked, it's a won game for us.

[OngBonga]

baudib last game was a slaughter. This was a fight.

[OngBonga]

And while I agree with Ong that even with the strategy there were very close to winning I do think with just some minor adjustments (like not targeting Aubrey like you did) you could have crushed what was a very good village.

I was brutally honest in my assessment of aubrey and felt there was no way she was getting away with that first post of hers. Our best hope with aubrey was that a villager who knows her well fights her corner.

I felt like my hand was forced with all the bussing. boog was reluctant, I did try to find another lynch, but the momentum was too much.

[baudib]

Your hand was not forced. On D1 no one was pointing fingers at BooG, BID or yourself except for yourselves. No one forced you to wave your hands up and down and say, "HEY AUBREY SLIPPED. BID SLIPPED. BOOG IS A WOLF!"

The fact that you had built all this villa cred and spent none of it on getting a mislynch or getting a villager shot at while you were still drawing live is terrible.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I have a fool-proof read on ong, now.

If he's not reading like a FPS villager, then he must be an FPS wolf.

Did I get it right, BID?

[OngBonga]

Your hand was not forced. On D1 no one was pointing fingers at BooG, BID or yourself except for yourselves. No one forced you to wave your hands up and down and say, "HEY AUBREY SLIPPED. BID SLIPPED. BOOG IS A WOLF!"

The fact that you had built all this villa cred and spent none of it on getting a mislynch or getting a villager shot at while you were still drawing live is terrible.

I was going with village momentum.

It's really hard to take this critisism seriously when you were a terrible wolf last game. I had a serious chance of winning this solo. drew decided to call me a wolf, if I'm villager what do I do there? Ignore him and swing for mislynch bait? cmon baudib. You're telling me I played terribly because I didn't play like a wolf should have played. But that's precisely why i had a chance of winning.

I look forward to you next being a wolf here.

[OngBonga]

I have a fool-proof read on ong, now.

If he's not reading like a FPS villager, then he must be an FPS wolf.

Did I get it right, BID?

Here's a lock read on me...

Take a look at who I'm killing. That's my team.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Also, I consider a lone-wolf scenario to be a rogue-like adventure run. You seriously doubt that you have any hope of 'beating' the game, but the fun is to keep trying and to get further in.

In that regard, I think ong threw away a golden opportunity to drag this game out as long as possible. Ong's right that a lot of villagers would have died before we started to consider him in the POE. It would have taken the game mechanics to out him, not his play.

[OngBonga]

I was actually confident of victory until I crunched the numbers. And that was after boog died. I didn't realise that boog dying left me hoping for the village to screw it up. That was my main strategic mistake.

Honestly, the idea that killing villagers is more important than looking like a villager is ludicrous to me, and I have recent results to back me up.

[OngBonga]

If a wolf does not look like a villager, he relies entirely on the incompetence of the village.

Which is why baudib got lynched d1 last game and I went deep here.

This village is not incompetent.

[baudib]

Are you serious? There's no way you can win the game without killing villagers. You didn't give a single thought to leading a mislynch or making a case on a villager. You were talking about winning the game solo while BooG and BID were still alive.

D2 is the entire game. Going into the day, it's 50-50. At the end of D2, it's 80-20. There's not a single post in the den on D2 about shooting at or voting for a villager. JFC.

[MadMojoMonkey]

It's really hard to take this critisism seriously when you were a terrible wolf last game.

*ahem* The last 2 times baudib was a wolf on FTR, he was D1 lynched over his opening 3 posts.

I'd say I look forward to seeing him wolf again, but the only reason I played this game was because baudib was modding, and therefore definitely not in the player pool. When I see him play a game without badgering and insulting people for disagreeing with his reads, then I will reconsider. I'm on the rail or available to co-mod in the meantime.

Call me an ass, but I'm in it for good times, and when an FTR mod is doing the stuff that frustrates me, I step aside and give them leeway to do as they please.

[GatorJH]

If a wolf does not look like a villager, he relies entirely on the incompetence of the village.

Which is why baudib got lynched d1 last game and I went deep here.

This village is not incompetent.

Our villages are rarely incompetent these days and it is making it harder on the wolves. They almost have to play perfectly and imho you were pretty close to doing that.

[baudib]

If a wolf does not look like a villager, he relies entirely on the incompetence of the village.

Which is why baudib got lynched d1 last game and I went deep here.

This village is not incompetent.

There were plenty of villagers this game that weren't active and/or weren't playing well. You pushed exactly 0 of them.

Maybe if you made a push on SMF or Wuf or Hifi, you get claims and then have a clue on who to kill at night. If you kill the healer on N2/N3 you and BooG have a legit shot to win. Instead, the entire game was about making you, the least important wolf, look good.

[Luco]

We messed up with boog's claim, that was the critical point. That was where it becomes a lost cause for us. Until then, so long as I'm not getting lynched or peeked, it's a won game for us.

Given the recent village streak I totally, totally understand all the bussing and it's a strat that nearly won it for you I think.

What I don't understand is why when boog and batm were tied on D2, you tried to push for smf and when that got no traction, boog emerged and CC'd drew. Boog could have probably just talked himself out of a lynch there, he's got great villa tone and batm was totally absent.

I see you agree that this was the pivotal moment, were you guys not feeling a batm lynch at the time?

[GatorJH]

Are you serious? There's no way you can win the game without killing villagers. You didn't give a single thought to leading a mislynch or making a case on a villager. You were talking about winning the game solo while BooG and BID were still alive.

D2 is the entire game. Going into the day, it's 50-50. At the end of D2, it's 80-20. There's not a single post in the den on D2 about shooting at or voting for a villager. JFC.

Baud,
I agree that D2 was a bad one for the wolves from a strategy and results perspective, but it doesn't mean you completely throw out the strategy as a whole, which is what you are eluding to. While focusing solely on targeting wolves is bad so is solely focusing on killing villagers. As it is in most cases, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[baudib]

Baud,
I agree that D2 was a bad one for the wolves from a strategy and results perspective, but it doesn't mean you completely throw out the strategy as a whole, which is what you are eluding to. While focusing solely on targeting wolves is bad so is solely focusing on killing villagers. As it is in most cases, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I've seen two big wolf wins recently (Disney mash on MU, MagicTheGathering on POG) where the wolves started with a strict "no bussing" strategy from the start and they romped.

It's not that there wasn't a sole focus on killing villagers, there was never even a single thought given to it.

On D2, the village captain is saying, "WHAT? Why do you guys want BID and Aubrey shot at?"

[Luco]

Wolf concession at F9 is not close. This game was a slaughter.

Ong was literally last on everyone's PoE and had he played it out instead of conceding he would have made F4 every time

[OngBonga]

lol I'm never the least important wolf.

[baudib]

Ong was literally last on everyone's PoE and had he played it out instead of conceding he would have made F4 every time

Possibly. That would have required Ong being able to make cases on people he hadn't made cases on all game and continuing to post well. That's a big assumption.

[OngBonga]

Possibly. That would have required Ong being able to make cases on people he hadn't made cases on all game and continuing to post well. That's a big assumption.

I'd have seen who I was facing off with, probably mojo. You think I'm going to ignore the gizmo CFD then? Nope.

[OngBonga]

baudib, maybe on POG or places where the village isn't this strong, your methods will crush mine. But here, you're gonna need to put more of a focus on villager knees than anything else, if you want to win. The standard here is just too high. Wolves gotta up their game. That's what I tried to do here. Emphasis on looking like a villager. It nearly worked. The closest to a wolf win in some time.

[Luco]

I've seen two big wolf wins recently (Disney mash on MU...

Disney mash = debut game on a new site with 85 players in the game. I'm unsurprised to hear the wolves strolled that one home.

Incidentally I'm now 2 for 2 on MU, thumbsup gif thingey!

[baudib]

This village isn't that strong, it had Wufwugy.

You're not getting it. The problem is that you didn't think about mislynches or figure out how many you had until it was way too late. You are literally drawing dead after the BID lynch because there were too many cleared villagers because you didn't track peeks, or didn't put pressure on people who were specials or get any utility out of BID's role, because he was dead.

You also forced two people who had never made fake claims into making fake claims that effectively put a time limit on their life. And then when you had a chance to get an extra 1-2 days out of both of them, you threw it away to save a villager to make yourself look good.

Also, your teammates may have been able to post better and had more WIM if they didn't have to defend against your constant, non-stop attacks.

[OngBonga]

Are you serious? There's no way you can win the game without killing villagers.

You say this like I was choosing the lynch. I only choose who I vote for.

I think your problem is that you think the wolves are capable of taking control of the village. That's what you try and fail to do. I try to anticipate village momentum. That's the key difference between our recent wolf strategies.

I didn't get drew, rilla, aubrey and boog killed. The village did, and I played my part.

[baudib]

Disney mash = debut game on a new site with 85 players in the game. I'm unsurprised to hear the wolves strolled that one home.

Incidentally I'm now 2 for 2 on MU, thumbsup gif thingey!

Debut game on new site had nothing to do with it. Everyone knew each other, everyone also knew the wolf captain would have demanded a no-bussing strategy as well.

[OngBonga]

baudib, how do I not attack drew in my shoes? How do I ignore aubrey and rilla? How do I stop boog getting lynched?

By making it obvious I'm a wolf?

[OngBonga]

I missed you this game baudib.

[baudib]

You say this like I was choosing the lynch. I only choose who I vote for.

I think your problem is that you think the wolves are capable of taking control of the village. That's what you try and fail to do. I try to anticipate village momentum. That's the key difference between our recent wolf strategies.

I didn't get drew, rilla, aubrey and boog killed. The village did, and I played my part.

Village momentum involved shooting/killing JKDS, Wuf and BATM. You completely stopped that.

[OngBonga]

I stopped it? Funny, I thought beck was running that show.

[OngBonga]

That ITA would be where you would make it obvious you're a wolf, baudib.

[baudib]

That ITA would be where you would make it obvious you're a wolf, baudib.

Really? Rascal shot JKDS and he wasn't a wolf.

[baudib]

I stopped it? Funny, I thought beck was running that show.

and he wanted JKDS and Wuf killed.

[OngBonga]

Hey everyone, I know drew is shouting I'm a wolf for no reason, I know rilla is doing fuck all and that's wolfy for him, I know aubrey heavily implied kami is a villager without actually saying so, but let's shoot JKDS.

[OngBonga]

Really? Rascal shot JKDS and he wasn't a wolf.

rascal wasn't trying to bully villagers into shooting villagers.

You would, as wolf, I'm assuming.

[OngBonga]

I think baudib just straight up doesn't want to believe that this is what it takes to win as wolf at FTR in 2015.

And even then it requires at least two wolves to pull it off convincingly.

[OngBonga]

There was a day where all the wolves had to do to win was hope SDM was playing.

[baudib]

I think baudib just straight up doesn't want to believe that this is what it takes to win as wolf at FTR in 2015.

And even then it requires at least two wolves to pull it off convincingly.

yes, you need 2 wolves. TWO. you were talking about winning it solo while you still had 2 teammates. You didn't figure out that BooG would have been necessary until after he was dead.