Christianity could be a higher order way of organizing lives

[MadMojoMonkey]

What if the church wasn't such a dick to Galileo? You don't think that set science, and mankind, back some?

Religion attempts to provide answers where there are none. It's effectively shutting down the search for answers. As a scientist, you must have surely have a gigantic problem with this.

Then Galileo would have had a happier end of life, I imagine. I dunno.
Yes, I think that set back scientific knowledge somewhat, but IDK. Galilean Relativity is still taught in introductory physics courses around the world.
What about all non-church people was are dicks to other physicists who were not Galileo? Bullying nerds is a historically verified good time for most non-nerds.
My point isn't that religion does no harm. My point is that harm is kinda a ubiquitous part of humanity, and I don't see secular people as devoid of causing harm.

It's a common misunderstanding that science and religion are at odds with each other.
These fields of study address different categories of questions.
Science is concerned with questions which have measurable answers.
Religion is concerned with questions like, "What is good?" "How shall we spend our time?" "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

Science can't answer these questions, and any scientist who makes claims about unmeasurable assertions is speaking beyond their depths as a scientist.
Likewise, any religious person who makes claims at odds with anything that is directly measurable is speaking beyond their depths as a religious authority.

The Big Bang Theory is the work of a Vatican Astronomer, so any assertion that the Big Bang is at odds with Catholicism or Christianity is misinformed.

Religion doesn't shut down the search for answers. Religion is focused on answering questions of ethics and morality.
Idiots who try to use religion as a tool to fight science, and vice versa, are sorely misguided about what they think they're doing.

[BananaStand]

Likewise, any religious person who makes claims at odds with anything that is directly measurable is speaking beyond their depths as a religious authority..

Except that describes almost all devoutly religious people. Do you see the problem now?

Religion doesn't shut down the search for answers.

Yes it does.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Except that describes almost all devoutly religious people. Do you see the problem now?

...in America, yes. American religiosity is a blight.

Americans don't know what religion is and does, they simply use it as a platform to buoy the beliefs they already hold.

Like the whole anti-gay rhetoric that people CLAIM they get from the bible. Right.
There are like 5 passages in the bible which speak to being gay in any capacity and 2 of them are in Leviticus, so... let's all read some Leviticus and see how much we want to apply that to our modern lives. I'm pretty sure there are Christians reading this post wearing cloth of mixed fibers, you evil bastards. Your cotton-polyester blend is your ticket to hell.

Meanwhile, there are dozens and dozens of passages in the Bible which clearly and unambiguously say that divorce is a sin.

So if you're going to say the Bible is the reason you're against homosexuality, then I expect you to be 10x as passionately against state-sanctioned divorce, and if not, you're a liar and/or a hypocrite.


American religion vs. international religion is a totally weird thing.

[wufwugy]

...in America, yes. American religiosity is a blight.

There are some problems with American religion. There are also some unique pluses. The first of which might be that it is American religion that created the first widespread adoption of the idea of inalienable rights.

[Poopadoop]

Then Galileo would have had a happier end of life, I imagine. I dunno.
Yes, I think that set back scientific knowledge somewhat, but IDK. Galilean Relativity is still taught in introductory physics courses around the world.

A lot of learning in ye olde times was limited to the clergy because they were the only ones who knew how to read and had access to books. Mind you, most of them spent time reading biblical texts and not trying to do science (with some notable exceptions).

The religious dogma that resisted attempts at true understanding (and still does, e.g., the fact that teaching evolution is not allowed in certain places) is hard to reconcile with the idea that religion was a net neutral force for science. The Bible contains all kinds of scientific 'facts' that would surely have been overturned sooner had they not enjoyed the vigorous support of the Church.

What about all non-church people was are dicks to other physicists who were not Galileo? Bullying nerds is a historically verified good time for most non-nerds.

That's news to me. Do you have a source to prove that scientists were historically persecuted by anyone other than religious people for any reason other than religion?

The Big Bang Theory is the work of a Vatican Astronomer, so any assertion that the Big Bang is at odds with Catholicism or Christianity is misinformed.

And yet there are many Christians who still believe that God created the universe, so yes it is at odds with a significant minority of them.

Religion doesn't shut down the search for answers. Religion is focused on answering questions of ethics and morality.
Idiots who try to use religion as a tool to fight science, and vice versa, are sorely misguided about what they think they're doing.

That might be your view, but through most of history it's hard to argue the separation of these questions was something acknowledged by the Church. Historically, they only seem to cave on things when the evidence is overwhelming and generally can't be argued against any more. And even then some of them refuse to cave.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Do you have a source to prove that scientists were historically persecuted by anyone other than religious people for any reason other than religion?

Nope.

[MadMojoMonkey]

And yet there are many Christians who still believe that God created the universe, so yes it is at odds with a significant minority of them.

George Lemaitre believed that God created the universe, too. It didn't phase him that God used a Big Bang as part of the creating process.

[Poopadoop]

George Lemaitre believed that God created the universe, too. It didn't phase him that God used a Big Bang as part of the creating process.

That's nice for George, but there are still people arguing that the fossil record can't possibly show the dinosaurs were around 250m years ago because the Earth is only ~5000 years old. This isn't arguing that religion addresses different questions than science, it's arguing that science is wrong because it disagrees with scripture.

[MadMojoMonkey]

That's nice for George, but there are still people arguing that the fossil record can't possibly show the dinosaurs were around 250m years ago because the Earth is only ~5000 years old. This isn't arguing that religion addresses different questions than science, it's arguing that science is wrong because it disagrees with scripture.

Again, there are idiots who appropriate religion to affirm their opinions.

George (deceased) and his Vatican buddies do not hold this opinion, so at least the Catholic religion doesn't hold this as a core principle.
I can't speak to other religious sects, even just the Christian sects, as I was raised Catholic, and studied other world religions, but not other sects of Christianity.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Historically, they only seem to cave on things when the evidence is overwhelming and generally can't be argued against any more.

This describes science, too.

[Poopadoop]

This describes science, too.

But with science, the beliefs being replaced are also based on evidence. It's not like Newton pulled the theory of gravity out of his ass, the way the Bible's theories of many things are.

Edit: Further, with science, they don't keep telling people to go learn about the theory that's been discredited, unless it has some sort of practical application like Newton's theories have to engineering for example.

The religious equivalent to what science does would be to go back and re-edit the Bible every few years to toss out whatever's been proven to be complete bullshit.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Historically, they only seem to cave on things when the evidence is overwhelming and generally can't be argued against any more.

This describes science, too.

But with science, the beliefs being replaced are also based on evidence. It's not like Newton pulled the theory of gravity out of his ass, the way the Bible's theories of many things are.

What?

[Poopadoop]

What?

I just gave an example of a theory based on evidence (Newton), being replaced by a theory that better explained anomalies in that evidence (Einstein). What do you object to about that argument?

If you can show there was a scientific theory that was based on just whatever storybook the scientist read the previous night, and everyone blindly accepted that theory until it was overwhelmingly proven false, then please do.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I just gave an example of a theory based on evidence (Newton), being replaced by a theory that better explained anomalies in that evidence (Einstein). What do you object to about that argument?

Nothing. Check the underscores in those quotes I quoted.

If you can show there was a scientific theory that was based on just whatever storybook the scientist read the previous night, and everyone blindly accepted that theory until it was overwhelmingly proven false, then please do.

Wait... isn't that your whole profession up to about 20 years ago?


You're gonna have to pin that down, 'cause "the scientist" could cover a toddler jumping in puddles, experimenting on the concept of wetness.


After a brief google search, I couldn't find any direct evidence to corroborate the tales I was told in school, not even the dates of the "era of armchair philosophers," I was told about, so I got nothing.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Edit: Further, with science, they don't keep telling people to go learn about the theory that's been discredited, unless it has some sort of practical application like Newton's theories have to engineering for example.

PShh. I wish.
I had to learn about the Dirac sea of electrons, and the Bohr atomic model as well as plenty of physics history.
You still have to learn about Freud's nonsense?

The religious equivalent to what science does would be to go back and re-edit the Bible every few years to toss out whatever's been proven to be complete bullshit.

Sounds like you're trying to make religion and science somehow be similar or do the same thing, and they just don't. There's no reason religion should be updating their stories. Those stories are parables of human nature. The only reason to change them is if human nature changes. I'm not saying it never will, but everything I've learned about anthropology sounds pretty relate-able. The stories in the Bible are often outlandish, but still totally relatable.

[Poopadoop]

PShh. I wish.
I had to learn about the Dirac sea of electrons, and the Bohr atomic model as well as plenty of physics history.
You still have to learn about Freud's nonsense?

At the same time they teach Freud they also teach that it's nonsense. The teaching of his theories is not provided because they want you to accept those theories; it's done because they want you to understand how the field originated and developed. Big difference.

I have yet to see a Bible where it says 'and Noah put two of each animal on his ark (But not really, it's just a story). The Earth is the centre of the universe (except now we know it isn't)', and so on.

Sounds like you're trying to make religion and science somehow be similar or do the same thing, and they just don't.

No, I'm trying to hold them to the same standard of evidence for their claims about things that can be studied.

There's no reason religion should be updating their stories. Those stories are parables of human nature. The only reason to change them is if human nature changes. I'm not saying it never will, but everything I've learned about anthropology sounds pretty relate-able. The stories in the Bible are often outlandish, but still totally relatable.

Aesop's fables are also relatable. But they're constructed in a way so as to make it clear that they're not to be taken as true events that ever happened. Did you ever wonder why they're all about animals? If the Bible were simply a set of parables not meant to be taken literally there are many literary ways to make that abundantly clear to the reader.

[MadMojoMonkey]

At the same time they teach Freud they also teach that it's nonsense. The teaching of his theories is not provided because they want you to accept those theories; it's done because they want you to understand how the field originated and developed. Big difference.

Wasn't everything Freud said "a scientific theory that was based on just whatever storybook he read the previous night, and everyone blindly accepted that theory until it was overwhelmingly proven false?"

I have yet to see a Bible where it says 'and Noah put two of each animal on his ark (But not really, it's just a story). The Earth is the centre of the universe (except now we know it isn't)', and so on.

No, I'm trying to hold them to the same standard of evidence for their claims about things that can be studied.

We have science to do those things. That's not what religion does.

Religion isn't about facts and evidence and measurable things. Religion is about ethics and morals and parables.

Aesop's fables are also relatable. But they're constructed in a way so as to make it clear that they're not to be taken as true events that ever happened. Did you ever wonder why they're all about animals? If the Bible were simply a set of parables not meant to be taken literally there are many literary ways to make that abundantly clear to the reader.

Again, you're asserting that the readers want a different story than the one they have, or that the story they like is the wrong one.

Telling people what they like is folly.

[oskar]

It's a common misunderstanding that science and religion are at odds with each other.
These fields of study address different categories of questions.
Science is concerned with questions which have measurable answers.
Religion is concerned with questions like, "What is good?" "How shall we spend our time?" "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

Science can't answer these questions, and any scientist who makes claims about unmeasurable assertions is speaking beyond their depths as a scientist.
Likewise, any religious person who makes claims at odds with anything that is directly measurable is speaking beyond their depths as a religious authority.

The inquisition thought differently.