Advice on hand with pocket Js

[davfagan]

Can I get some tips on this hand. I know I should have raised pre-flop, but I wanted to walk away with $15 if the over card came.

POKERSTARS GAME #444713829: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2004/05/20 - 16:42:46 (ET)
Table 'Siri' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: friendol ($25 in chips)
Seat 2: VeraN ($25.40 in chips)
Seat 3: Dr.Dude ($52.10 in chips)
Seat 4: Blue Crush ($10.85 in chips)
Seat 5: MgF80 ($11.35 in chips)
Seat 6: JT55 ($26.90 in chips)
Seat 7: michaljeter3 ($25 in chips)
Seat 8: davfagan ($15.35 in chips)
Seat 9: dbl_ac3s ($23.05 in chips)
dbl_ac3s: posts small blind $0.10
friendol: posts big blind $0.25
michaljeter3: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to davfagan [Jc Jd]
VeraN: folds
Dr.Dude: calls $0.25
Blue Crush: calls $0.25
MgF80: calls $0.25
JT55: folds
michaljeter3 has timed out
michaljeter3: folds
michaljeter3 is sitting out
davfagan: calls $0.25
dbl_ac3s: calls $0.15
friendol: checks
*** FLOP *** [3s 2s 9d]
dbl_ac3s: checks
friendol: checks
Dr.Dude: checks
Blue Crush: checks
MgF80: checks
davfagan: bets $1
dbl_ac3s: calls $1
friendol: folds
Dr.Dude: folds
Blue Crush: folds
MgF80: folds
*** TURN *** [3s 2s 9d] [3c]
dbl_ac3s: checks
davfagan: bets $2
dbl_ac3s: calls $2
*** RIVER *** [3s 2s 9d 3c] [4d]
dbl_ac3s: checks
davfagan: bets $3
dbl_ac3s: raises $7 to $10
davfagan: raises $2.10 to $12.10 and is all-in
dbl_ac3s: calls $2.10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
davfagan: shows [Jc Jd] (two pair, Jacks and Threes)
dbl_ac3s: shows [4h 4c] (a full house, Fours full of Threes)
dbl_ac3s collected $30.40 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $31.95 | Rake $1.55
Board [3s 2s 9d 3c 4d]
Seat 1: friendol (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: VeraN folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Dr.Dude folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Blue Crush folded on the Flop
Seat 5: MgF80 folded on the Flop
Seat 6: JT55 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: michaljeter3 folded before Flop
Seat 8: davfagan (button) showed [Jc Jd] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Threes
Seat 9: dbl_ac3s (small blind) showed [4h 4c] and won ($30.40) with a full house, Fours full of Threes

[Xianti]

{Moved from Hold'em Strategies}


Welcome to FTR, davfagan. I'm at work and don't have time to analyze this at the moment, but I'm sure someone here will offer some insight.

For the time being, there was a lengthy discussion of how to play pocket Jacks that you will find useful here:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=499

[Fnord]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) converter

BB ($$25)
UTG ($$25.40)
UTG+1 ($$52.10)
MP1 ($$10.85)
MP2 ($$11.35)
MP3 ($$26.90)
CO ($$25)
davfagan ($$15.35)
SB ($$23.05)

Preflop: davfagan is Button with J, J. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, MP3 folds, CO (poster) folds, davfagan calls $0.25, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.90) 3, 2, 9 (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, davfagan bets $1, SB calls $1, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

Turn: ($3.90) 3 (2 players)
SB checks, davfagan bets $2, SB calls $2.

River: ($7.90) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, davfagan bets $3, SB raises to $10, davfagan raises to $12.1, SB calls $2.10.

Final Pot: $32.10
Main Pot: $32.10, between davfagan and SB. > Pot won by SB ($32.10).

Results in white below:
SB shows 4h 4c (full house, fours full of threes).
davfagan shows Jc Jd (two pair, jacks and threes).
Outcome: SB wins $32.10.

Pre-flop:
Raise to nearly pot ($1- $1.5), you got a good hand that plays best against 1 other hand and the best postion.

Flop:
Bet at least 75% pot ($1.5 - $2) on the flop. Your overpair needs a lot of protection.

Turn:
Fine

River:
Check. You made him pay to draw, don't set-up a check raise for value/steal.

[fishstick]

you're freakin me out, xianti, i was going to reply to this, browsed away from it, came right back, and it was gone!

davfagan - JJ and TT are tough. 'lots of discussion here on different approaches. on your particular hand:

- i would have thrown a little PFR out for information (you know that)
- post-flop i would have come out bigger - you've currently got top pair (assuming he's not slowplaying QQ or above - unlikely with no PFR from him) and assuming he didn't make a set with a small pair, let's either chase him out, or make him pay if he's drawing. his call would seem to support this.
- the three on the turn would make me nervous, but the $2 bet is ok, and you didn't get reraised.
- the river's getting scary, and the check raise should tell you everything - he's got a boat, straight or trips, all of which beat your Benny (pair of jacks ) and 3's

he made it on the turn. JJ can mess you up if you're not willing to let them go when it looks bad.

[fishstick]

fnord and i must have posted at the same time.

i didn't re-phrase his comments, i really didn't!!!

[Fnord]

he made it on the turn. JJ can mess you up if you're not willing to let them go when it looks bad.

Other hands tell that story better. I think the lesson here is that weak play and an ill-advised river bet will not only put you in a position for a bad beat, but also pay it off.

[davfagan]

Yea, I was scared at the river with the raise, I figured he played either A5 or had a 3. I didn't expect the pocket 4s though. Good advice to bet bigger after the flop though. I'm generally not a huge better, usually only 3x the big blind, but in this instance I probably could have gotten rid of him with a larger bet.

[Fnord]

Yea, I was scared at the river with the raise, I figured he played either A5 or had a 3. I didn't expect the pocket 4s though. Good advice to bet bigger after the flop though. I'm generally not a huge better, usually only 3x the big blind, but in this instance I probably could have gotten rid of him with a larger bet.

Avoid that problem entirely by betting more aggressivly on the flop/turn and checking the river when you only have a pair. You should only bet the river if you'll often get called/raised by a weaker hand or to get a draw to fold if you can't beat a busted draw.

Consider...

What is the chance your Jacks are good?
What is the chance he's been slow playing you all along?
If he check-raises a weaker hand, how good would you feel about calling?
How often does a weaker hand just call?

NLHE has enough tough decisions. Don't put yourself in a position where you have to make one if you can avoid it without losing money.

BTW, I'm guilty of this same mistake every now and then.

Oh one more thing.... YOU WANT HIM TO CALL. Seriously, if a weaker hand consistanly folds on bad implied pot odds then how much money can you expect to make at poker? Your sin here was making a bet that put you in a position to overpay him for sucking out on you.