Early play, tight or loose?

[JJgoneMAD]

Is it better to play loose in the early levels when the blinds are small or do you think it's better to go with the mainstream strat which is to play tight for at least 3levels?
I used to do well playing tight early, but lately, i've been having tons of trouble with that strat. Especially at Stars, but PP hasn't been much better. At stars, you start with 1500chips. So when someone is on a hot streak, it's not too hard to build a chip stack of say 4000. When the game gets shorthanded and say couple of big stacks are on your left and right... you can forget about stealing blinds. They'll steal them for you, but of course they take all the spoils. Unless somehow you double up, it becomes a game of survival between the tiny stacks.
So i've been thinking, maybe playing loose early and building at least a respectable size of stack is more important than trying to hang on to get in the money. What do you think?

[fishstick]

i've started loosening up in the early levels, mainly in late position in unraised pots.

until the BB hits 50 (and even here if my stack is big enough), i'll
"speculate" on things like Ax suited, KT suited, JT suited etc. looking for that perfect flop.

[JJgoneMAD]

How's that change working for you so far?

[allLiving]

I find that playing extremely tight early in sngs is a good way to not improve your chip stack and be very predictable... Play high suited connecters, and suited gap connectors. Here is my list of raising hands early in the sngs...
AJs - AQs - AKs - AA - KK - QQ - JJ - KQs - KJs

[fishstick]

How's that change working for you so far?

well, i've caught the occasional double up with just the right hand a few times. overall, if nothing else, i don't think it's hurting me, and should i get a monster hand down the road, i think it makes me a little more "callable".

it also depends on the site: with party poker's 800 starting chips, i stay a bit tighter. with poker stars 1500 chips, i tend to speculate a little more.

[Fnord]

Early on, I love to limp with pocket pairs and will limp/re-raise with AA/KK/AK from EP. Also picking off limpers with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK (TT/AQ maybe) is fun.

I used to raise a lot durring level 1/2 of PS SnGs, but have since learned that it's pointless.

[JJgoneMAD]

I started limping in with low to med suited connectors in the early SnGs, bad idea huh? I even limp in with KQo and KJo when in late position. Lately, i've been struggling to survive with my very average stack size (just about the stack that i'd start the SnG)in later levels, i've been playing very loose in the early SnGs to build a stack that wouldn't be easily bullied by the big stacks. Should i throw away those 56s and 89s? Probably KQo and KJo too huh?

[JJgoneMAD]

Early on, I love to limp with pocket pairs and will limp/re-raise with AA/KK/AK from EP. Also picking off limpers with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK (TT/AQ maybe) is fun.

You know what? Maybe that's exactly what i should start doing. I had Q5o call my pocket As when i raised 3x the blind, Q5o flops two pair and takes a chunk of my chips. Maybe i'm giving too much information when i play my big pairs. I limp in with big pairs only (rarely, just to change gears) when i play ring games, always felt uncomfortable not protecting my hand at SnGs. In another instance, blind was 25/50 i think, i raise the blind 3x again and this time with pocket kings, pocket 3 calls and flops trips, again my stack look like it has been bitten by a great white. Maybe i'm just too predictable... much to think...

[stuck]

Early on, I love to limp with pocket pairs and will limp/re-raise with AA/KK/AK from EP. Also picking off limpers with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK (TT/AQ maybe) is fun.

You know what? Maybe that's exactly what i should start doing. I had Q5o call my pocket As when i raised 3x the blind, Q5o flops two pair and takes a chunk of my chips. Maybe i'm giving too much information when i play my big pairs. I limp in with big pairs only (rarely, just to change gears) when i play ring games, always felt uncomfortable not protecting my hand at SnGs. In another instance, blind was 25/50 i think, i raise the blind 3x again and this time with pocket kings, pocket 3 calls and flops trips, again my stack look like it has been bitten by a great white.

maybe being tight but even more aggressive? In the past few tourneys that I've played, i've noticed that if someone makes a very aggressive play at an otherwise tight table, (especially if they/someone does it twice) the table loosens up quickly and playing tighter then has it's advantages, because when you get a good hand on the flop, people will be loose and call/try to bluff you out.

So maybe if you get AA/KK, instead of trying to increase your stacks by betting 4x the big blind, why not just push all in right there? Put people in a frustrating position and hopefully get a few of them frustrated enough to exhibit tilt-like tendencies, and then you can mop up?

What do people think of this idea?

[robe43]

I've noticed that at Poker Stars at the $5 SNGs. Whereas at Party there was always some nutjob or two going all in with whatever the first couple hands, on PS it seems to start out tight until someone makes a big bet or aggresive play and then it starts to loosen up.

[JJgoneMAD]

Maybe all in when in the early position, and maybe a small raise if i'm late to act and there are couple of limpers... i guess it would depend on the table and the players.. but maybe that's how i'll try for now.

at Party there was always some nutjob or two going all in with whatever the first couple hands

I agree with you on that robe43, but i don't know about stars. I agree that half of my SnGs at stars were similar to what you described, but the other half had lots of maniacs. But in general, there are many more idiots at PP, i do agree with that.

[michael1123]

Early on I limp in with a lot of hands. KJ, KT, Axs, low suited connectors from late position, any pocket pair, etc., and raise better hands like KQ, AJ, etc.

And I'm not just looking for a magical flop like Fishstick, I'm looking for anything that I read to be better than anyone else has.

For example, lets say I limp in with QTs and get a flop like Qc 7c 6d. From early position I'll make a rather small bet that looks like a draw. If I get raised, I know I'm beat and lay it down. But if I'm just called, and the flop comes a card lower than a Q and it isn't a club, I'm pretty confident that I have the best hand, and will make a sizeable bet (at least 3/4ths of the pot) to scare out the draws. Even then, I'm always willing to lay the hand down if I sense I'm beat.

If you're good at reading whether your beat or not, a lot of rather marginal hands are playable. But I don't play utter crap that has little chance of beating anything. I see about 30% of the flops early on, on average.

I've been playing the 2 table turbo SNGs on Poker Stars, and finishing in the money in about half of them, and usually I get to the 2nd/final table as one of the top 3 stacks. I tighten up on the hands I limp in on once the blinds increase to 100+, unless I'm really a big stack, but I raise more often then as well. So ... my limping in with weaker hands than some may be more necessary in a two-table turbo than it would be in a regular SNG. But I think it could still work in those as well.

I'm not a believer that you should be extremely tight or extremely loose early on. About in the middle of those two is best for me.

[davfagan]

I play tight early, similar to what Fnord said. Raising is very pointless, since almost everyone who limped will also call your raise, so unless you have a monster, you better hope for a great flop. AllLiving mentioned that you might be considered predictable, that's exactly what I'm hoping for. I hope that the rest of the table see a few hands that I raised with, and then later, when I loosen up and get much more aggressive, they really respect my raises and fold, this usually happens anyways since, most players are either extremely passive or call almost any pre-flop raise and then fold to almost any post-flop bet.

[michael1123]

"Raising is very pointless, since almost everyone who limped will also call your raise"

Not on Poker Stars. And if you have a very good hand, but want to thin the field, you just increase your raise based on the number of callers, to something close to a potsize raise instead of a 3x BB raise.

[JJgoneMAD]

Maybe i'm playing the wrong stake. As in $5 SnG ($10SnG pretty much the same), you got maniacs raising 3x blind with KJo, they'll bet hard on a flop that looks Ah 5h Jc with two or more callers. It's hard to not put them with AKs or AKo, sometimes they do hold those LOL. I either reraise or just fold to the maniacs, but it's a pissoff to see what they were holding when they reveal their hands.
Marginal hands like QTs can be played much better against rocks, as they'll give you a good idea of what they are holding preflop, and confirm it after the flop. So maybe when you get to the 2nd table playing with not necessarily good players, but maybe some good and some better than average players, you'd have much better read of your opponents. I think some of you guys' points make perfect sense for PP, and some exactly how should be played at stars.

[johnnyawe]

late position unraised pot, I'm happy to limp in with a nice draw hand. Othwerwise, play tight.

[fishstick]

"Raising is very pointless, since almost everyone who limped will also call your raise"

Not on Poker Stars. And if you have a very good hand, but want to thin the field, you just increase your raise based on the number of callers, to something close to a potsize raise instead of a 3x BB raise.

in my experience on pokerstars, the players in both sng's and ring game are way more "raise respecting" than on party poker.

[JJgoneMAD]

in my experience on pokerstars, the players in both sng's and ring game are way more "raise respecting" than on party poker.

While that is true, you have to be very careful not to raise too often. What i found at stars is, both ring games and SnGs will almost always have couple of wise players. They notice your pattern, if they think you are playing too aggressive, they may reraise you big time and you either end up committing yourself to a pot or they take your agressiveness away by forcing you to fold. There, you just lost half of the chips gained by bluffing your way, not a good way to lose your chips when you've built them by risking a lot of your own chips. So PP and Stars both have their Pros and Cons i think.

[michael1123]

That is true, JJ, that's why you have to mix it up. They do catch on pretty fast there, but I don't mind that, as I get a feel for when they've caught on, and then adapt. As long as I can read them well, I like my chances.

An example of them adapting well was given to me late in a tourney yesterday. I was the short stack, but had a good reputation, as I always had a big hand when I went to a showdown. I was in the BB, and everyone folded to the SB, who limped in. I read this as weakness, and shoved all in with a completely horrible hand (something like 64s) partly because they only had a little more than me as well, so they'd need a good hand to call. They folded. Next time I'm in the BB, the SB limps to me, and I'm thinking he may have realized I bluffed last time and is trying to trap me, so I just check this time, and hit two pair with 84 I think it was, on a rag flop. The other guy min bets, and I fake thinking about it and then call. On the turn an ace hits, and he min bets again, and I min raise, representing an ace or maybe better. This minraise nearly puts me all in, so he reraises to finish that. He has pocket jacks, and I've completely trapped him here. But the river pairs the board, and I go out 4th.

Anyway, the point of this is that I wouldn't try two similar bluffs in a row on PokerStars. I was in check fold mode the second time, until I hit the flop big.

[JJgoneMAD]

Rags hitting the flop big.. tough to be aggressive with them, but playing them slow weakens the strenght of your hand on every card that hits the board. Tough one michael.
Also, finally something i said an advance player confirms it LOL 8-) . I just saw michael holding on to a big stack at stars, hope you go all the way dude. As usual, thanks for the advice, they help a lot.

[JJgoneMAD]

Damn! I'm straight
Sexually and at FTR, i'm straight

[michael1123]

Wow, my first stalker. I feel honored.

I finished 2nd in that one. Lost a couple coinflips when it was down to 4 or so that knocked my stack down a bit. But what's nice about these two table tournies is that 2nd still pays really well compared to the buy in, and even 3rd is pretty nice. $108 for first, $81 for 2nd, $54 for 3rd, $27 for 4th.