Limping vs. attacking blinds with marginal hands

[DrNoChance]

Before I get started with this thread, I just want to say that I'm not normally too passive when it comes to blind stealing. I'll steal them often, and with anything. Usually, I get too greedy. I'm sure there were more than a few chuckles at the FTR Showdown when my 10 2 offsuit steal attempt blew up in my face

However, there was one hand at the Showdown that made me start thinking. It was a hand where I limped in from late with KTs instead of attacking. If I had attacked, I would have picked up the blinds. I limped, and ended up trapping somebody for a huge pot. I believe it was a flush vs. flush scenario, so it was a bit of a fluke.

Here's my recent thoughts:

Let's say you are late in a tourney, blinds are worth stealing and it's no longer a full table, and it's folded to you on the CO or button with something marginal....QJ/KJ/KT/AT...something not trash, but certainly not great. If you raise and get called, you know you're almost certainly behind. You can still try to steal post-flop. There's a risk, however, that you now hold a trap hand, are rank dominated, and might lose a bundle if you hit your flop. You might almost actually be in better shape if you had attacked with 72o and gotten called since you could still post-flop steal if you felt the timing was right but there was no way you were going to flop anything you'd get married to and trapped with. If you had limped from late pre-flop and SB/BB raised, you could throw your hand away without having invested a lot. Granted, somebody aggressive might have just made you throw your hand away by raising with trash (and seeing your limp as a sign of a foldable hand). This is the biggest drawback. The plus side is that if the blind(s) just check you can still try a post-flop steal attempt (although it's more difficult without the pre-flop show of strength) and maybe, just maybe, you can flop something in common and have THEM rank dominated. If they didn't pre-flop raise you are certainly more likely to dominate with KJ/KT/etc. than be dominated.

I'm not saying you never attack the blinds with these hands. But is there some value in limping vs. attacking if you are concerned about your table image being seen as too manic but at the same time don't want to fold a decent (but not strong/great) hand?

[Toasty]

I think the fact that you and your oppenent will miss so often that a raise pre-flop and betting any flop is too much EV compared to limping.

I'd be happier taking a stab at the blinds.

[DrNoChance]

I suppose the chances of a rank match AND having that rank also come up on the flop are fairly small...probably not enough +EV to outweigh the +EV of a successful blinds steal.

I guess the times I've been flat called and trapped post-flop have stung me quite badly. I suppose as my post-flop play improves I'll be better at sensing when to get away from top pair. I don't even want to think about last night when I was heads up at the end of a SnG and my top pair got outkicked and it cost me my whole stack.

[Toasty]

I actually limped with AK on the bubble in a limit SnG the other day because the BB was the chip leader and I felt pretty sure he would call. With AK missing 1/2 the time, I wanted to see the flop and take it from there (Good plan so far) flop comes JTJ rainbow *Crap*.

Not sure why but I decide to check raise to represent the Jack. He 3 bets me *Crap* (blinds were 150/300 by this stage there is now over 2k in the pot) I call (Now this was just dumb, I should have either folded to the 3bet or capped it, he bets the turn and I fold) I almost creep into the money with the rest of my stack but the SS who is all in catches a river card to triple up and I soon bubble.

I really hated the way i played this hand from start to finish, I'd also lost a 3.5k chip lead, which on PP is an amazing thing to do

I can't help think that I might have still been ahead, as soon as he got the big stack he bet and raised like a crazy man until everyone folded. Also there is always the small chance he might have folded to a pre flop raise

[heatman]

I actually limped with AK on the bubble in a limit SnG the other day because the BB was the chip leader and I felt pretty sure he would call. With AK missing 1/2 the time, I wanted to see the flop and take it from there (Good plan so far) flop comes JTJ rainbow *Crap*.

The worst thing I hate about hands like this is how they affect my table image. Now you're seen as a weak player and good luck stealing anything at this table. Limp, call, fold isn't a recipe for getting a lot of respect. Play strong, or don't play with AK.

But you know that. :P

[michael1123]

Ouch, yeah, I can't see myself limping with AK in limit. In NL, I sometimes limp to aggressive players to try and trap them with a hand like AK. But I'm never thinking about laying it down.

[pokerfanatic]

I never play AK soft pre-flop, I don't normally limp (unless I’m switching gears or something), the hand is to variable to slow play it, I don't really like slow playing all that much unless I have a monster (the nuts), on the flop then the turn, but even then i don't slow play all that much, I personally think it's a leak in someone’s game if they don't protect there hands, and fold the hands that miss, on the flop. I don't know how many times I have thrown away AK on the flop because it missed all draws possible and didn't even pair. That's just my style I have also thrown away AA on the flop because I knew I was beat.

[michael1123]

I should clarify. I only slowplay AK in NL when I know a person after me will raise preflop. Then I can reraise.

I'm not looking to be in the hand with AK and no raises preflop. Although if the flop is rags, after my call/re-raise preflop, I'm going to bet again and represent a high pocket pair.

I think folding every time you miss a flop after a preflop raise could be considered a hole in someones game as well. You usually take down a pot in these circumstances.

[pokerfanatic]

yes I didn't clarify NL or limit I would make that play in limit not NL, sorry I agree with that you should represent a bettor hand in NL but if someone comes over the top of you, you have to think your bet, they are basically saying two pair, if your representing a pocket pair they basically came over the top scything they could beat that...

[michael1123]

Yeah, obviously you fold if someone comes over the top of you and you have nothing.

[Toasty]

The dude had half the table chips anytime someone raised he just re-raised. The blinds were already big and i didn't want to risk finishing on the bubble with the luck of one hand.

Sometimes weak is the best way to play.

If it was NL, I would have probably pushed.