More MTT questions - recent experience

[geeftr]

I've been playing MTTs at my local casino in the UK for a coule of months now and doing ok - about £50 up after 5 attempts. My latest attempt however was a complete disaster. I had to rebuy 6 times and was out of the tournament 15 mins after the rebuys had finished. I was dealt almost total garbage all night, usually not picture cards and not suited nor connected. If I limped with the occasional high card I got then I hit nothing on the flop and someone would raise - most of the time with a good hand - top pair, two pair or trips. It turned out that if I'd have carried on in any of these hands then I would have lost more money.

My four most annoying hands came early on:

1) AKo, I raised 4 times the BB - one caller who had aces and flat called me to the river when he bet again - neither of us hit anything with the community cards.

2) Two hands later I'm holding AKs with me to act and two others - SB, BB left. SB was super tight and BB looked like he was going to fold so I bet 4 times the BB only to be raised all in by the SB. BB folds, I call and SB had AA - arrgghhhh - should have known it was big bur didn't think it could happen to me twice within three hands!

3) I hold KK and flat call to keep people in the pot - an Ace flops over - that was me beaten again by pair of aces - this time by a player who had been bluffing all night and playing very loose.

4) My last hand of the night KQs, I went all in - probably getting close to tilt mode - called by 64o and beaten with a straight!

I was also beaten 3 times by the river card giving my opponent either a straight or a flush - otherwise I would have won.

So after all that I have come to the conclusion that rebuy tournaments are simply a game of fortune during the rebuy period. If you don't have any luck then you are set for an early exit. I have a few poker books and played online for a few years (usually making a small profit) so I've got an idea what I'm doing. I know you cant win every time but I just want to make clear that you can study all the books in the world and play this game till the day you die - but if luck isn't on your side then you will not win that day.

Any comments?

[fishstick]

I've been playing MTTs at my local casino in the UK for a coule of months now and doing ok - about £50 up after 5 attempts. My latest attempt however was a complete disaster. I had to rebuy 6 times and was out of the tournament 15 mins after the rebuys had finished. I was dealt almost total garbage all night, usually not picture cards and not suited nor connected. If I limped with the occasional high card I got then I hit nothing on the flop and someone would raise - most of the time with a good hand - top pair, two pair or trips. It turned out that if I'd have carried on in any of these hands then I would have lost more money.

at least you're up on your scone count!

1) AKo, I raised 4 times the BB - one caller who had aces and flat called me to the river when he bet again - neither of us hit anything with the community cards.

with AK, if you miss the flop, go ahead and take a stab at the pot. if you get called and the turn doesn't help you, slow down. think about your odds - ak is a drawing hand. he could be calling you down with pocket 22's, and he still has you beat. that said - the flat call from AA was dumbass play and it would have served him right if you outdrew him.

2) Two hands later I'm holding AKs with me to act and two others - SB, BB left. SB was super tight and BB looked like he was going to fold so I bet 4 times the BB only to be raised all in by the SB. BB folds, I call and SB had AA - arrgghhhh - should have known it was big bur didn't think it could happen to me twice within three hands!

unless you're a short stack making a stand, or a huge stack that can afford to gamble, don't call preflop AI's with AK.

3) I hold KK and flat call to keep people in the pot - an Ace flops over - that was me beaten again by pair of aces - this time by a player who had been bluffing all night and playing very loose.

i don't like not raising KK, unless the table's down to 3 or less, and i'm still probably raising it. a raise might have folded some of the ace anything hands.

4) My last hand of the night KQs, I went all in - probably getting close to tilt mode - called by 64o and beaten with a straight!

that just hurts!

I was also beaten 3 times by the river card giving my opponent either a straight or a flush - otherwise I would have won.

remember when you get rivered that the odds are on your side - keep making the correct bet and will win in the long run.

So after all that I have come to the conclusion that rebuy tournaments are simply a game of fortune during the rebuy period. If you don't have any luck then you are set for an early exit. I have a few poker books and played online for a few years (usually making a small profit) so I've got an idea what I'm doing. I know you cant win every time but I just want to make clear that you can study all the books in the world and play this game till the day you die - but if luck isn't on your side then you will not win that day.

i don't like the rebuy format, but they can make for large prize pools. i sense a couple of things in your post:

1. you have a patience problem. there are going to be times (in tourneys or ring games) where you need to fold every hand you get for an hour, because to play that crap is wrong. i know that's hard in a tourney, because you've got a limited amount of time to make something happen, but unless you're in danger of getting eaten by the blinds, you have to be patient.

2. there is luck in poker - without a doubt. but luck, like the universe, doesn't care about who, where, or when. if someone is drawing to a flush, and you've bet enough to ruin their pot odds, you've made the correct play. if they continue to draw, they have made the wrong play. 2 out of 3 times you will rewarded, 1 time you will lose.

keep at it, think one long session, and my personal take - stay out of rebuys!

[gutshot]

I've been going through the same thing the past couple weeks, but finally started breaking out of the slump.

I know how frustrating it is to get cold cards and try to make something happen in a tourney. Pushing marginal hands usually only makes it worse. Fishstick is right about the patience thing. You gotta hang in there and play YOUR game. Don't play junk hands just because you get bored.

Just keep your composure and keep playing your game and things will turn around.

[Tenny]

I've had tourney's like that and like everyone else I've had Aces cracked by some moron on a flush draw that he ends up hitting on the river. I used to go into a semi-tilt and end up out and very pissed. Now I try to remain calm and composed and try to rebuild my stack. In fact the other night I lost a nice chunk of chips on a bad beat, but I stayed focused, rebuilt my stack and ended up winning. On the nights that the bad beat puts me out, I just review my play and if I played it correct, I just blow it off and join another.

[Symbolic]

What was the blind system at the tournament?

MTT's are probably my favorite medium to play NL hold'em in, there's so much more to them than in Single Table Tournaments, and Ring games. For one you can't be content folding hands, and just staying out of action while people get knocked out, and chip leaders amass chips. (especially in a re-buy tournament, because tilt can strike hard, and chip-leaders can swoop lots of chips in a short amount of time). If the cards run cold for an hour or so, you officially have the title of 'rock' at the table, nobody knows you are picking up 27o everytime..for all they know you just layed down KQo to a minimal raise.

You've gotta be willing to use position with mediocre cards.

Let's say you pick up Q 8 on the button; usually a hand you would muck (me as well, unless I happen to be in a MTT where gaining chips is pivotal to your success later on). There's been 2 limpers....or perhaps even a raise of 2x the BB, and the action is on you. Raising 5x here may seem like a foolish move that will only cost you chips, but the blinds looking at a raise, and a re-raise will re-think playing that KTo or even KJo, almost eliminating them from the picture (unless they happen to step on a monster and re-raise...i've found its also much easier to get away from these hands). You might get 2 callers, or perhaps just one, but if they don't re-raise they are no longer as confident in thier hand as they once were. Now you have the image of strength.

Flop of 8 K T

(My favorite Flop when last to act) When 2 of the 3 cards are suited if somebody has the K you'll know it, because he'll bet it out hard trying to protect his hand, but with a re-raise from a rock he might wonder if his K is even good. If it gets checked to you, its an easy bet of pot size+. If he bets 1/2 the pot or less, a re-raise of pot size would put the fear of god inside him even if he is holding AK (and he might be chasing the flush, trying to give himself odds...always amazed at the amount of people who do this, it's an open invitation to re-raise the pot, and give's away exactly what the person's holding). If he re-raises you, it's time to worry, but with your show of strength chances are he's folding or just calling. If he calls you've got him. Of course this isn't foolproof...it'll work 8/10 times if you have a very tight image like you had. If you get him to fold, its now up to you if you want to show the bluff, and then hope the cards start coming to you, so you can make people pay when they call you down, thinking their mid pair is good. Or just muck it, take the fair sized pot, and be happy 'cause everybody won't duck out of the way next time you are in a pot.

I know some of you might say I'm just bored, and shouldn't even be in the hand, and perhaps that sentiment is warranted, but I feel like waiting for perfect hands in MTT is a formula for disaster, and don't ever think about playing these types of hands out of SB/BB to a raise, or first 4 or 5 around the table. That is, unless you've got an uncanny feel, and have a great read on your opponents. Daniel Negreanu uses this tactic quite a bit, because he understands what to do in different situations.

The mark of a great poker player is not that he plays good hands well, but the fact that he plays marginal hands to their utmost potential.

Of course, Patience is always important

I'd love to hear your comments, and look forward to a great discussion on this subject perhaps.

[Symbolic]

I'd like to point out that I would not advise doing this when blinds are at their first couple levels. I am talking about when they get to 25-50+, If you are folding for an hour or more than chances are the levels are getting up there, so even if everybody folds back around to you, you win a decent sized pot that was worth the gamble.

[LugNutz]

Rebuys just seem dangerous to me... you only need them when you bust. At that point you're probably not a happy camper and maybe not playing at your best... I wouldn't be. I guess if you've been catching bad cards/beats but still think it's a good game then rebuy away... they've always struck me as a recipe for disaster though.


Lug

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[geeftr]

Just a bit more info about the MTT I was in:

Each player started with 1000 chips for £10 entry and rebuys cost £10 for another 1000 chips. Rebuys available for 2 hours. Started with 8 tables and 11 players at each table.

Blinds started at 50, 100 for the first hour then raised to 100, 200 at the start of the second hour, then doubled every 30 mins.

At the end of rebuy period the blinds doubled every 15 minutes until ten players left at final table when blinds doulbed every 30 mins.

One point I forgot to mention - I did win two hands during this MTT, both of them bluffs when everyone checked the flop. Didn't win too much though. One of my bluffs was with 23o which cheered me up a bit.

Some interesting suggestions. In particular 'dont call preflop AI's with AKs' - easier said than done I feel, even though it is usually the right play. I suppose it's all part of the learning process for me.

Should have raised KK (or any large pair for that matter) but was trying to be clever and maximise my winnings from the pot - won't be trying that one again.

Patience may be an issue, particularly when other players at the table are amassing large chip stacks and hitting nice hands / flops. I feel that I need to make a move as a tiny chip stack at the end of the rebuys is almost useless - better to take a chance earlier in the tournament and get beaten than sit there and die a slow death.

I do play position when I get a reasonable hand, but most of this night when i had position my cards were terrible. I'm talking 46o, 29o, 73o etc and having to call a raise. I was beginning to think it was a conspiracy! I don't tend to play these hands in tournament games. I like Symbolics suggestion with what I'd call a semi-semi-bluff, I need to incorporate a few more of these tactics in my game. I'd have to admit that I'd more than likely fold if someone raised after the flop in the circumstances Symbolic described. Again I'm still learning and I appreciate these suggestions.

Rebuy tournamets can be annoying and having to rebuy means you are in a mood best described as not happy. I suppose that can affect my game and make the tilt mode approach ever closer. I find if I play really tight from the start of the tournament that I either get a bad beat or no action when I have a prime hand. In my (little) experience of these MTTs it's definetely best to play looser than normal and go for draws when the situation allows.

[Xianti]

{Moved from Hold'em Strategies}

{This post has been removed}

[Xianti]

? not appropriate in strategies Xianti ?

All tournament discussions go in this Tournament Tactics forum.


Thanks.

[geeftr]

Good call Xianti - I keep forgetting about the tournaments forum - it wont happen again (possibly)