KK first hand of MTT - how to play?

[DBL0SVN]

I got KK on the first hand of a large MTT. Blinds 10/20. I'm in middle positon (stack 800) and raise to 200. Button calls, everyone else folds.
Flop - A x x

Bad flop for me, but I test the waters with a raise of 300.
Button pushes all-in. I figure he has the A and fold.

Left me with 300 and crippled for the rest of the tournament. i soon went out. Comments? Any other way to play this hand or was I just unlucky to get the A on the flop and should play it this way every time?

[|~|ypermegachi]

this is exactly the reason i hate getting premium hands early. you raise big preflop, and get one caller. the flop is unfavourable, and they push. well you're probably screwed. if you call, you could be drawing to 2 outs. but if you fold, you don't have any chips left anyways, so you're screwed.

in this situation, i would call, because it is early. i'd rather go out early, and focus my attention on a ring game, or another MTT later on, then waste the next hour trying to come back from the dead.

[Iconoclastic]

Try raising 3x BB or the pot instead of a quarter of your stack...

[a500lbgorilla]

Raising 3BB wont get all thsoe real lose players out so you don't know what flop is safe for Kings. Take it heads up and how for the best. Also, if you're left with a short stack early. Just loosen up and try to get a monster, if not you just bust out early and save yourself an hour or two.

-'rilla

[Iconoclastic]

Raising 3BB wont get all thsoe real lose players out so you don't know what flop is safe for Kings. Take it heads up and how for the best. Also, if you're left with a short stack early. Just loosen up and try to get a monster, if not you just bust out early and save yourself an hour or two.

-'rilla

Yes it won't get marginal hands out, but you will lose MUCH less (about 4x less) chips when an A hits the flop (that's a third of the time). Also you'll have better implied odds with more people around to pay you off when you hit your set. And also you'll disguise future preflop raises better since I strongly doubt that you'll want to raise a quarter of your flop every single time you raise preflop.

Take it headsup and hope for the best? That's a fine strategy if you know you're an inferior player, but if you think you have a chance at all then don't hope for anything and raise 3x.

[Krapp]

I would either 3x bet or push. If there going to call a 200 raise, they will probably call a push... You can also try a limp and hope for a raise and you can re-raise push...

[DBL0SVN]

Hmmm ... a variety of suggestions from limping to pushing all-in. I wanted to make money from this hand but didn't want to be up against too many people seeing the flop. On reflection, I think I overcommitted myself on this one hand when there are too many loose people around. Maybe a raise of 100 (5x BB) would have been better. Would probably still have folded everyone except the one guy who called. Post flop, I could have bet 100 and then folded when he reraised me, leaving me with still a respectable stack (600). The lesson I'm taking from this is not to be too greedy early on, when there are a lot of loose players, and to always leave myself in a position where I can walk away, even from a premium starting hand.

[a500lbgorilla]

But Jacks will reraise you there if you make a weak bet and you lose a decent pot. You can't fold to the ace if they havent given you a reason to. If I'm playin Kings out of position, I'm making a big raise to weed them out and betting the flop decently even if it comes A x x all of the same suit. I'm trying to give them to opportunity to think their hand is weak and fold not just assuming I'm beat and letting go of a decent hand and a decent pot.

And if you fall down to 400 chips early in a tourny don't worry, there are still plenty of weak players left to double you back up and get you back in the tourny.

And an ace flops 1/3 of the time? That seems a bit high. You only flop a pair 1/3 of the time.

-'rilla

[zenbitz]

4/50 * 45/49 * 44/48 * 3 ways = 0.20 1 in 5.

If you include AAA and AAX it's slightly higher. If you assume the other guy has an ace, it's significantly - 15% instead of 20%- lower.

Now, given the flop i s AXX and there and 1 caller to your raise with KK...

What are the odds he has an ace? About 100% <grin>

[a500lbgorilla]

What are the odds he has an ace? About 100% <grin>

Then bluff him, yeesh. I don't like that mentality that Cowboys are only called by Ace hands. You need to read that he's too tight to play any hand that has no ace and since its early in the tourny you have no read. So it just comes down to your mentality. Do you play it safe and make the neccissary assumptions to convince yourself to fold or do you claim that pots as yours and go get it? Personally I make a bet that leaves me half my stack and make him have ace strong kicker to call me down. If he calls, I'm in check/fold mode. If he raises, the gig is up. But if (and commonly when) he folds da pot is mine! Early in the tourny you still have everyone: not just the tight successful players.

-'rilla

[DBL0SVN]

Gorilla,
I agree with your reasoning in your previous posts - that I had to bet it hard pre and post flop. But when he went all-in to my post flop raise, i think Zenbits is right - odds he has an Ace to match the A in the flop was close to 100%. I think where I went wrong was not leaving myself enough to walk away from the hand with.

[a500lbgorilla]

Well, now you can focus that free time on the ring games and its a net gain in the end! See! Every story has a happy ending.

A small aside: while typing "ending" I typed "engineering." I need to switch majors. I have no time for poker!

-'rilla