When to drop the bluff @ a MTT

[Joke]

I have just started play nl holdem and im think a lot about when you guys drop your bluffs. Lets say I bet 4-2x BB from the button or good position and it getts headsup. In this case I always bet the pot or a little less at the flop if its about chips I really need. But lets say he calls or re-raise, what to do? When faced with a raise I lay it down, normaly. But if he smoth call? I dont know much about him cus its a MTT and I have just played with him for ten hands of fold... Should I stab again on the turn or just check/fold it up. Is it worth stabbing at the river in such case? (this exampel is when I dont have a winning hand)

And another question then, ;p If im limping with like 4 guys and im last to act and its checkt to me, is it a good play to make a stab now? maybe bet the minimum or something. It have worked some times for me actually, is this luck, or do you think most oponents will feel weekness and move over the top?

btw..Thx for a great forum guys -_-

[LeFou]

(this exampel is when I dont have a winning hand)

there are lots of nonwinning hands out there... have to be more specific. Mostly at this point it's about sensing the player. If heshe's sick of giving you pots, it's time to back off 'cause you'll get called.

If heshe legitimately fears you, keep pounding -- as long as you've got a chance of making a hand. I mean gutshots, whipsaws, overcards only, and middle button and that stuff are acceptable chances.

And another question then, ;p If im limping with like 4 guys and im last to act and its checkt to me, is it a good play to make a stab now? maybe bet the minimum or something. It have worked some times for me actually

Works for me sometimes, too. If the flop is really ragged a minbet can do it. Lots of people get religious about folding anything less than top pair decent kicker.

If the flop has ANYthing cool in it, well it goes back to what the others think of you. A minbet will be 1/4 or 1/5 of the pot at this point, so I mean who's going to pass on even a marginal hit?

PS: this is just my 02; presumably, the ABC guys will tell you what exactly is the "correct" play.

[zenbitz]

wtf's a whipsaw?

[Joke]

LeFu, what about the pure chans of making him fold, lets say you think hes chasing a flush and turn is a blank. What about moving in eventhough you viriutaly dont have a chans to improve? ... this is down too knowing your opponent I guess. Here you want him too fold not call with a mere flush draw and maybe overs/small pair... But bet the pot again, overbet it or maybe small bet it .. what works the most? I dont want him too sniff out my weakness here.

And then this "correct play" thing is cainda fussy in nl holdem I think, most of the time its eleven diffrent "correct" plays for a hand, it just comes down to hoping you picked the best one this time. ;p

[LeFou]

wtf's a whipsaw?

A whipsaw is three (consecutive) to a straight simultaneous with 3 to a flush. I scribbled it out once at it was 20-1 or so to complete one or the other..

[LeFou]

LeFu, what about the pure chans of making him fold, lets say you think hes chasing a flush and turn is a blank. What about moving in eventhough you viriutaly dont have a chans to improve?

If you're non-improved hand has zero chance of winning it's usually time to give up the bluff -- unless you know opp will fold a majority of the time. This is because with a potsized bet you're getting 1 to 1, so you need it to work >50% of the time.

However, middle button, overcards, Ace-high, maybe King and so on will likely beat a "pure" flush draw and are not bluffs.

And then this "correct play" thing is cainda fussy in nl holdem I think, most of the time its eleven diffrent "correct" plays for a hand, it just comes down to hoping you picked the best one this time. ;p

Actually there is a single correct play for each of opp's possible hands. The Uber-correct play is the one that is correct for the most (%) likely hands. e.g.

20% chance opp holds hand W -- correct play is A
15% chance opp holds X -- correct play is B
30% chanze opp holds Y -- correct play is B
35% chance opp holds Z -- correct play is A

correct play overall is, of course, A. Having an idea of those percentages means rewinding the hand, remembering opp's actions, etc -- so that you can eliminate/reduce/enhance the likelihood of the various hands.

With experience, this does not occur in the conscious mind, but elsewhere. The "gut". Maybe the duodenum.

[Joke]

hmm thats true ... this is some deep shit man ;p this might be my big "leek" when playing... I like to steal if I get a good spot, but I have a hard time to dropp it when they play back at me. Dont know way.. deep down I rember those few times I won with a "bluff" re-raise ... and the huge reward that got me! I tend to forget that I will be cought more times than not...

[TylerK]

Well, what is your goal with a bluff? I would say that it's generally to pick up a pot where nobody has much of anything.

If you get reraised, it's probably one of two things: the other guy has a hand, or he's pegged you as a bluffer and is bluffing back at you. Either way, why not fold? Whatever the case may be, it's advantageous to you to fold...if he has a hand the reason is obvious, but what about if he is bluffing back? Well, you've just reinforced to him that you are a bluffer and that he should play back at you. Why is this an advantage? The next time you're in a hand with this same guy and you DO have something, he's going to play the same way, and you'll likely be able to get all his chips in the middle before he knows what hit him.

Personally, I've tried to reduce my pure bluffs to only around half of large-ish pots. Why? I simply have better odds. Like someone said earlier in this thread, it has to work over 50% of the time with a pot-sized bet. With a bet that is half the pot, it now only needs to work more than 1/3 of the time. Waiting for big pots means that a bet that is 1/2 the pot (say $5 into a $10 pot instead of $3 into a $3 pot) is much more "intimidating" amount of money to call, which definitely has an effect on your opponents' reactions, while still giving you the same odds.

[LeFou]

this might be my big "leek" when playing...

No, this is the big leek in your game:

I like to steal if I get a good spot, but I have a hard time to dropp it when they play back at me.

A play-back is almost never a bluff. You MUST have a reasonable chance to draw out on an already-good hand to call it.

The only option is to call it so you can get caught bluffing and leverage the action later; but if you fold to a playback they're going to see that you were bluffing anyway and it's cheaper.