Just whining.

[TylerK]

*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #862430293: Tournament #3461125, Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2004/11/16 - 00:01:14 (ET)
Table '3461125 1' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: flyinjoe (4512 in chips)
Seat 3: martinam (2610 in chips)
Seat 4: eddiehaskell (1770 in chips)
Seat 7: P Fresh (1798 in chips)
Seat 9: TylerK (2810 in chips)
flyinjoe: posts small blind 75
martinam: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TylerK [Qd Tc]
eddiehaskell: folds
P Fresh: folds
TylerK: raises 300 to 450
flyinjoe: calls 375
martinam: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qc 2d Td]
flyinjoe: checks
TylerK: bets 1050
flyinjoe: calls 1050
*** TURN *** [Qc 2d Td] [9c]
flyinjoe: bets 3012 and is all-in
TylerK: calls 1310 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Qc 2d Td 9c] [Ks]
TylerK said, "figures"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
flyinjoe: shows [Kc Jc] (a straight, Nine to King)
TylerK: shows [Qd Tc] (two pair, Queens and Tens)
flyinjoe collected 5770 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5770 | Rake 0
Board [Qc 2d Td 9c Ks]
Seat 1: flyinjoe (small blind) showed [Kc Jc] and won (5770) with a straight, Nine to King
Seat 3: martinam (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: eddiehaskell folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: P Fresh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: TylerK (button) showed [Qd Tc] and lost with two pair, Queens and Tens

[a500lbgorilla]

...and?

You put you're money in with the worst of it preflop, best of it on the flop, and well worst of it on the turn. Sounds like you played it poorly.

-'rilla

[TylerK]

...and?

You put you're money in with the worst of it preflop, best of it on the flop, and well worst of it on the turn. Sounds like you played it poorly.

-'rilla

That's pretty harsh.

It was an adequate bet for a steal attempt at that table. Steal didn't work, but went good. Opponent made a POOR call on the flop, and I made what may or may not have been a poor call on the turn.

I'm perfectly willing to discuss it further, but my only probem with my play in this hand is not pushing on the flop.

[a500lbgorilla]

He can reason the call if it means busting you out and comming one closer to making the money with a huge stack. If he misses his draw he's still well within the thick of things but if he makes his draw he's a cinch to win the whole thing.

-'rilla

[michael1123]

His call is fine in my opinion, although it probably would've been better to just put you all in at the flop if he was going to play it. Its not +EV but its a tournament and at times you have to make negative EV moves.

Think of it from his perspective. He puts 450 in preflop with KJs (the most suspect move he made in the hand, but still ok) and then he hits the flop big for the drawing hand he's playing and you think he's going to fold for twice what he put in preflop? If so, he shouldn't be playing KJs.

And if the situation was reversed, would you not bet the same way and call his likely all in raise? If not, you shouldn't be playing QTo.

Its a pretty average way to lose, which is what I think gorilla was saying in his first post.

[TylerK]

Think of it from his perspective. He puts 450 in preflop with KJs (the most suspect move he made in the hand, but still ok) and then he hits the flop big for the drawing hand he's playing and you think he's going to fold for twice what he put in preflop? If so, he shouldn't be playing KJs.

Right, this is why I think I should have pushed on the flop. He would have had to then call off about half of his stack, which MAY have pushed him off his draw. I don't know though, maybe you're right and he was going to make the big stack tournament play with this hand no matter how much I put in. In which case, I'm happy to get all my chips in on it every time.

And if the situation was reversed, would you not bet the same way and call his likely all in raise? If not, you shouldn't be playing QTo.

I just want to make one small clarification here...I definitely was NOT playing QTo. It could have been Q<anything>, I would be making the same bet in this situation at this table.

[michael1123]

Q anything? I'm all for aggressive poker, and maybe its just me, but when I bluff preflop in a tournament, I want a hand with decent potential so if I do get called I could at least flop a good draw. QTo is borderline (more one I'd do with a big stack and not a small stack), but a hand like QTs, KJs, 87s, etc. are more good blind steal hands for me in good position.

Its not like suited connectors are all that uncommon and hard to wait for. Pushing with really bad hands like Q4o or whatever (not suited, not connected) is a good way to piss away all of your chips, in my opinion.

[TylerK]

Well, I will defer to your opinion, since you seem to be a much more successful poker player than I am. My thought, though, is that in a case like this it is worth playing the situation/table/players rather than the cards.

[michael1123]

I get where you're coming from, but I think its more effective as a big stack without near as much risk, and potential is always nice on a steal.

Risking a 6th of your stack on a pure steal, without much potential to straight up beat a hand that'd call you, and may very easily dominate you, is risky.

Anyway, to clarify my position, I don't really think you played the hand badly at all, I just think that he really didn't either. Its just one ok hand hitting the flop huge losing to another ok hand hitting a very good draw on the flop (one of the best possible flops for the hand) and then completing their draw on the turn.