Making the Transition

[scottyses]

Hey guys.

First of all id just like to compliment everyone on a great forum. The advice from soupy, rad, mike, and many others is great and has already improved my game. My problem seems to come at the later stages of MTTs. I have been playing NL texas holdem ring games for about 4 yrs now and my strategy of waiting for premium hands and only drawing when getting good pot odds seems to serve me well in tourneys until it gets down to last 100 people or so. When I get to this stage, my game falters significantly. Seems like whenever I make the standard 3X BB raise someone goes over top of me, and whenever I try to play my premium drawing hands (ie 10-Js) someone will way overbet the pot and throw odds out the window. I rarely make it past 50th place. If anyone can give me some advice on what type of hands I should play and how agressive to be with them late in the tourney, that would be great. Also, if you get short stacked at what point (size of stack vs. blinds) should you start playing an all-in or nothing game? Thanx in advance for any help.

~Scotty

[a500lbgorilla]

Stop playing cards and start playing poker. You probably have zero stack and a lot of table respect. You should be blind stealing and trying to re-raise preflop to take hands away from people. You've made it to the point where you're within range of the final table, now all you've got to do is put a stack together.

-'rilla

[soupie]

Scottyses,

Congrats on a quality question. A lot of posts seem to be just how can i keep this or that from being drawn out on, with lots of sage advice to follow in later posts. Some of it good, but get real, you are going to get drawn out on by bad players, get over it. Ok now my rant is done.

OK, how to play late stages of MTT.

1. If at all possible draw really good holes cards and make them pay with their entire stack to call you. I mean this, if you are getting anything big like AA or KK. Trap em, offer em free massages, maybe a trip to Hawaii, whatever it takes, but do everything you can to get as many preflop chips in the pot.

2. You are going to have to play like you have AA even when you dont. Fire in big bets with position into smaller stacks if possible. If there are not any smaller stacks, dont worry about it, find the best spot and go. At least 3 times the BB, but if this is even close to half your stack go ahead and shove them all in, dont give them a chance to out play you. Remember the all bet leave them only 1 option to beat you a showdown, and heck we all hate showdowns, that is how you lose every tourney.

Ok if you cant play like you have AA, take a little piece of tape write AA on it and place it on the screen where the cards come up. It may actually take something drastic like that change your thinking.

All things considered, pushing with small connected cards or pairs will give you your best out if you get called. This of course assumes that is the best you are getting. Pushing with 78 is much stronger than say Q4 because if you do get called you will likely have a lot more outs with the 78.

3. The reraise steal. If you have identified an aggressive player that consistently stealing go ahead push on him with position. This play will give you the equivalent of 3 regular blind steals although it has more risk of course, but you are going to have to take a risk somewhere so dont be a pansy.

4. Lets say you happend to see a flop usually on the BB with a late position caller. Board comes down J44 and this joker bets the pot. Shove em in to win here. High risk steal but you get the equivalent of around 5 BB's.

I could go on and on specifics, but heres the point. Early in the tourney, you make a lot of reads that he or she is bluffing or weak, but yet you dont call or raise because it is not worth the risk of busting out or losing a significant portion of your stack and besides you have nothing either right? Ok, late in the tourney suddenly these high risk plays become mandatory to preserve and build your stack. You have to capture the antes and blinds 1 time per round to preserve your stack as it is now, and capture more to build your stack.

Now am not saying steal everything in site, but you should be raising the blinds probably about 2 times an orbit, somestimes the table is so aggressive you dont get to even raise one time in an orbit, focus in and find your best opportunities based on your stack size, and how long you can wait, just dont wait too long. When you are below about 3 times the bb, sb plus the antes, you should be in full panic attack mode, seizing every opportunity that comes your way.

Your ring experience is killing you here. In ring every hand has the same risk/reward expectations. In tourneys the value of hand changes with the evolving situation.

Regards,

Soupie

PS Rippy said last night if you have never taken your laptop to the head, and been wiping you butt with one hand and punching in a 3x BB raise with the other, you havent lived.

[Fnord]

All things considered, pushing with small connected cards or pairs will give you your best out if you get called. This of course assumes that is the best you are getting. Pushing with 78 is much stronger than say Q4 because if you do get called you will likely have a lot more outs with the 78.

Don't over-value small pairs (22-55) when the blinds are large. I'd rather push with 78s than 22. I'll leave the reason as an exercise for the reader. Similar thoughts with A2o - A5o.

[soupie]

Fnord,

You put me to the test here. A little confused so ran some numbers through the odds calculator at cardplayer.com. All numbers preflop percentages.

Ako vs 44 46% to 54%
AKo vs 78s 58% to 42%

QQ vs. 44 80% to 20%
QQ vs. 78S 78% to 22%

Now i chose these hands as the represent typical hands that will call or reraise large bets in the latter stages of the tourney. If you are going to commit all your chips to a hand that may potentially get called i dont see any more value in the 78s, in fact it plays worse overall in heads up showdown.

Now if you believe you are potentially going to be called by pairs smaller than 7 you may have a point, but most players in late stages of tourneys really look for better opportunities than calling with small pairs to get their chips into play.

Your turn.

Soupie

[Fnord]

I think your QQ numbers are off by a % in each direction, but that's a nit pick.

Now if you believe you are potentially going to be called by pairs smaller than 7 you may have a point, but most players in late stages of tourneys really look for better opportunities than calling with small pairs to get their chips into play.

That's been my experience, but it may have to do with the smaller stakes I've played tournies at. Once the blinds get silly no one can seem to laydown a pair.

[soupie]

Fnord,

It is my experience in the larger buy in tourneys you can get them to lay down all kinds of hands you would have thought they had to play such as JJ. The aggression factor can really make people not want to play you with what turns out to be far superior hands. I almost never see an all in call with 3's just because most players in larger buy in tourneys that make it deep in the field are smart enough to know they are better off raising 72o in an unraised uncalled pot than they are calling with 33 which is at best a coinflip.

OK now we need to hear from the original poster Scottyses.

soupie

[Sed]

Thanks to your guys posts I've recognized a pretty major fault in my MTT game.

I only play to survive

I can make it past 95% of the field but don't ever hit the big money because my only mode is play to survive. Usually I'll make it into the top 30 around 25th in chips without taking too much risk. I realize now that I have to switch to a balls out first or nothing mentality once it gets to a point.

My question is where is that point? Where have you hit the point where your stack is doomed without some major aggression? I know this is probably more of a feeling for the experienced MTT players but is there any way to quantify it, maybe when there are 2x the number of players that get paid or something like that? Obviously when you get down the the 3x bb/sb/antes you don't have a choice, but when you are coasting around the 15-20x bb number... when do you get aggressive?

thanks,
sed

[scottyses]

Wow ive been doing it all wrong then. Ive always tried to wait for an ace or 2 face cards when short stacked and looking to push all in. Great point that you are likely to get called by a better ace or end up in a similar position where you are dominated if you play A-x. Atleast with suited connectors like 7-8 I have 2 live cards. I'll begin to incorporate the reraise steal into my game as well. In ring games it is rarely worth the risk but im beginning to see that in tourneys you need the chips to survive so its worth a try if the situation feels right.

Just as a side note ive found a move I use in tourneys that really seems to work in getting a large amount of a player's stack. Most players like to sandbag when they hit a monster, but sometimes the flop comes where there isnt much of a chance of someone making a big 2nd best hand by the river. This presents a problem since even by slowplaying you are very unlikely to get paid off unless they hit a miracle card that beats you. In addition, people are weary of the slowplay and tend to be cautious if u check and call all the way then come out with a huge raise. So I like to make a pot sized bet with my beastly hand, then if I get called I check the turn or bet the minimum at them. Most of the time they are all too eager to throw their chips in after that, thinking "this sucker is mine, ill buy the pot off this weakling". When I go all in over the top of them they become very confused. Plus I get lots of respect for later hands since they are afraid of me making these shady type moves. This leads to easier steals and cheaper draws!! Hmmm, now all I gotta do is take advantage of this respect and be more aggressive......

[bigred]

Getting close to the money is a great time to start playing, Sed. People tighten up and pots can easily be bought. The reasoning behind this is that the average player psychology shifts to "why risk my stack when other people will get knocked out and i can coast into the money". Of yourse you'll need reads (which I'm learning only comes from experience which is something I just odn't have yet) but blinds and uncontested pots are a lot easier to steal.

As for blinds, I think it's pretty easy to know when to start playing aggressive. That is when you actually notice the blinds. I know it sounds pretty simple but think about it. When you start getting scared to play cards because of blinds (I'm assuming you're still in survival mode) or you start worrying about the blind coming again, you know it's time to start thinking about putting all your chips in. Numbers and ratios of blinds to determine when to push are always well and good but they're static numbers. Poker is dynamic. So trust your gut and realize that when you start worrying about blinds there's a reason for it.

[Sed]

Picking up online reads is something I really need to work on. Any tips?

-sed

[a500lbgorilla]

Concentrate on betting patterns, player types and the board.

With experience, it'll become second nature.

-'rilla

[DBL0SVN]

great replies guys - that's been very helpful.

I assume all this applies to SnG's as well as MTTs? Or are there any major differences in how you would approach a SnG on the bubble? One difference is that with a SnG, there are only 4-6 players by this stage while in an MTT, you still have a full table. How do the tactics of reraise steals, looking for position and stack size etc. change with an SnG?

[Chicago_Kid]

Or are there any major differences in how you would approach a SnG on the bubble?

I've had good success with 1 table SNGs, but I haven't been able to put together any sort of ROI on MTT.

First, I've trained myself on the stages of a one table---I'm in the process of changing that for MTT's. Second, I think you probably end up with a couple addt'l big hands that could knock you out. Third, *ah-hem* I haven't played that many of them.

I just think you need to play a lot of MTT's, and be willing to lose them until you get the feel for the stages and how to pick your spots. The main difference for me is that you HAVE TO pick your spots...while in 1 table you can more often fall into the money after one big hand and/or when several people suicide around you. In an MTT this rarely happens.

[michael1123]

Also, if you get short stacked at what point (size of stack vs. blinds) should you start playing an all-in or nothing game?

10xBB, in my opinion. I think its our nature to feel that we're not really that short stacked until we're down to 5xBB or something, but I really think its better to start shoving in every time you play a hand after you get anywhere below 10xBB, for two big reasons. First, you still have a stack that can convince players to lay down a lot of good hands, and second, just picking up the blinds alone would add a good deal to your stack.

You don't want to be risking your entire tourney stealing blinds that wouldn't make much of a difference to your stack, but when you're down to 10xBB, that's really not the case. Even without antees you're picking up 1.5BB each time a blind steal works, so that's a minimum increase of 15%, and typically more with antees and if you're farther down than 10xBB. If you have 7xBB and there's antees you may be picking up a pot that increases your stack by 30%.

Plus when you're short stacked you're looking to double up, so if you're picked a good hand in a good spot and they do call, you should still have a decent chance of doing just that.