top two pair crazy raising..

[bspahn]

So here we go, i flop top two pair and just to see where everybody else stands I put in a bet that shows weakness, after a good raise AND a call I begin to wonder. I figure they're playing on my assumed weak hand. I put in a re-raise and I see the all in. I figure I'm beat by a set.

Was my fold wrong ?
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Started at 08/Jan/05 16:01:17

punkjumper is at seat 0 with $8.70.
bkite is at seat 1 with $5.63.
gabriel47 is at seat 2 with $4.55.
Tango23 is at seat 3 with $10.70.
docscf is at seat 4 with $18.65.
suzie79 is at seat 5 with $13.22.
cimnet is at seat 6 with $5.50.
toycrazey2 is at seat 7 with $19.56.
junior3 is at seat 8 with $6.15.
tadworld is at seat 9 with $6.
The button is at seat 5.

cimnet posts the small blind of $.05.
toycrazey2 posts the big blind of $.10.

punkjumper: -- --
bkite: -- --
gabriel47: -- --
Tango23: -- --
docscf: -- --
suzie79: Th Ah
cimnet: -- --
toycrazey2: -- --
junior3: -- --
tadworld: -- --

Pre-flop:

junior3 calls. tadworld calls. punkjumper calls.
bkite calls. gabriel47 folds. Tango23 folds.
docscf folds. suzie79 calls. cimnet calls.
toycrazey2 checks.

Flop (board: 3h As Tc):

cimnet checks. toycrazey2 checks. junior3 checks.
tadworld checks. punkjumper checks. bkite checks.
suzie79 bets $.25. cimnet folds. toycrazey2 folds.
junior3 folds. tadworld calls. punkjumper raises
to $1. bkite calls. suzie79 re-raises to $1.75.
tadworld folds. punkjumper folds. bkite goes all-in
for $5.53. suzie79 folds, showing Th Ah. bkite is
returned $3.78 (uncalled).



Hand #3912447-1329 Summary:

$.25 is raked from a pot of $5.45.
bkite wins $5.20.
----------------------------------------------------------------

[a500lbgorilla]

What hands are you willing to go all in with?

-'rilla

[bspahn]

that's an important question. obviously in general i'd want the nuts.

the scary thing here really is that i highly doubt after calling the 4x raise and then my re-raise and then all in would be anything but the nuts...

other than the sets,i had the best possibly hand at this stage right ?

[Lucid]

I'm thinking from the size of the bets that you are playing at the 10-dollar tables. The level of skill at the 10-dollar tables is less than at higher limits so there is a good possibility that this guy went all-in with just top pair. You have to put him on one of three things. One, he has the same as you. Two, he has top pair with a good kicker. Three, he has the set or threes or tens. Two people would go all-in at this point: a poor player with an ace or less or a good player with a set. You have to use your knowledge of the players at the game to decide between the two. An of course there is the possibility of the semi-bluff with a gutshot strait but just include that possibility with poor player. If you do go all-in you also have some outs to add weight to that decision.

[a500lbgorilla]

I think you gave him too much credit. Was he a fish or was he pretty solid?

If he made any sort of fishy second pair calls in any of the hands you saw him play this was a bad fold.

-'rilla

[michael1123]

*double post*

[michael1123]

Yeah, it really depends on the player. If you're playing against a very tight (when facing strong raises, not necessarily with what cards they open or bet with) player, they probably had a set and figured you'd call with the strength you'd shown. But if you're playing with a rather reckless player, you absolutely should call this.

I learned my lesson folding top two pair to Lefou on a flop in a very similar situation (many reraises) ... Without a good read I kind of naturally assume that everyone plays tight aggressive until they've shown otherwise. I'm starting to think that without a good read or good reason to think you know their style (high or low stakes, for example), you probably shouldn't make big laydowns. Call, get the information, and use it next time, especially in a ring game.

[bspahn]

i think i'm really lacking in having a reasonable understanding of players especially at these limits. i haven't figured out a good way to really take notes and what to write down.
should i just have a notepad on my desk and write stuff in there?

[michael1123]

? Doesn't this site you play at have the ability to make player notes?

My system of taking notes is pretty simple. I write tight or loose and aggressive or passive, and if one is much more fitting than the other, like it almost always is, I make it all caps.

So like Dan Harrington would be TIGHT Passive, Phil Helmuth would be TIGHT Aggressive, Gus Hanson would be Loose AGGRESSIVE, a complete fish would be LOOSE PASSIVE, etc.

Then I write specific plays (what they had and what they bet compared to the BB preflop and the pot size after the flop) they've made that are either really odd or really bad. These could be anything from overbetting with a bad hand, way overbetting with a big hand, just calling on the river when they should've known they easily had the best hand, slowplaying way too much, etc. And of course I list any reliable reads I get if I see them doing the same thing every time with the same type of hand.

For really good players I barely get any notes, besides saying they're good and their style (tight aggressive usually, but there's many good loose aggressive players and some good tight passive players too - loose passive is just losing poker).

[bspahn]

so really you have to take a tally of every single person on a 10 table game and keep track of their flop% to see if they're tight or loose and then flop and onward see how strongly they bet, if they have something or not ?

[Lucid]

A simple way to take notes is to write all of their name and put a mark every time they pay to see the flop and write an a every time they raise. Record the same marks for their actions pre-flop. Also keep notes of unusual behavior like lots of check raising, bluffing, overvalueing mediocre hands, and always going to flop with suited high-card hands. Keep track of how they raise with particular cards. Some people will habitually raise a certain amount with certain cards while others like to throw out weak bets when they are on a draw. If you are observant you will know what cards they have.

[Lucid]

so really you have to take a tally of every single person on a 10 table game and keep track of their flop% to see if they're tight or loose and then flop and onward see how strongly they bet, if they have something or not ?

Only if you want to make informed decisions in the kind of situation you were in. You could still win at that level by not doing this and just make your decisions based on their stack size and whether they seem like a fish. I usually keep notes on at least two tables at the same time so one shouldn’t be too much work.

[bspahn]

so basically in this system you'll have a reasonable understanding of preflop (not in terms of %) but the more ticks someone has the more loose they are, and the more 'A's they have the more aggressive their preflop or post flop play is .. ?

and then additional information is just for certain hands and cases.

[Lucid]

so basically in this system you'll have a reasonable understanding of preflop (not in terms of %) but the more ticks someone has the more loose they are, and the more 'A's they have the more aggressive their preflop or post flop play is .. ?

and then additional information is just for certain hands and cases.

If I was 'rilla I would tap my nose (this means yes). Those damn monkeys are taking over the place.

[a500lbgorilla]

But you can never be 'rilla. Now matter how hard you try, they'll never accept you as me.

-'rilla

[michael1123]

so really you have to take a tally of every single person on a 10 table game and keep track of their flop% to see if they're tight or loose and then flop and onward see how strongly they bet, if they have something or not ?

No, I just play poker. If I notice a guy is too loose, I write it in his notes. If I notice he's extremely passive, I write it in his notes, etc. I don't actually keep track of their flop % or anything, I just take notes when things seem out of place.

Its the type of stuff you'd notice and remember in live games, but since its rather easy to forget that you've played with some online players before, the notes help to refresh your memory about how they play.

[Yeldud]

so really you have to take a tally of every single person on a 10 table game and keep track of their flop% to see if they're tight or loose and then flop and onward see how strongly they bet, if they have something or not ?

I will usually keep track if a player is tight or loose and aggressive or passive. I will note their pre-flop raises to their hole cards, if a hand does go to showdown. Also, I will note betting patterns. For example, how did they bet when they hit a straight or flush compared to how they bet when they were drawing. What was their betting pattern when their was a straight or flush draw on the board and they had 2pair or trips, etc.