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I´ll give SnG's a try.

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  1. #1

    Default I´ll give SnG's a try.

    Yesterday I decided to give sit and go tournaments a try. I have been playing some 5 player SnG's where player 3 won his money back, but I didn´t get much money out of it as the rake was so high (25%). 10 players table I had only played occasionally with small success, but back then I was a very unexperienced player.

    So I sat down in three 10 player SnG's. Before that, I read an article about SnG strategy at http://teamfu.freeshell.org/tourname...limit_sng.html.
    It had some good thoughts, so I thought I´d try to play like the advice, in a nutshell: Tight in the beginning especially postflop, trying to steal blinds in the middle of the tourney and get really aggressive in the end.

    The thing is that this tactic worked out very differently depending of the table I was playing. I wasn´t getting very bad or very good cards in any of the tourneys, but the table texture made the whole difference.

    If the long posts makes you not want to read, here is a SUMMARY:

    Tourney 1: Got starved out to about half initial stack size, then went all-in and came in forth place, just outside the money.

    Tourney 2: Really hard, the blinds got really high before people busted out. Aggressive preflop play. My strategy didn´t work out very well.

    Tourney 3: Managing some nice pot stealing. Very cautious table, easy to be somewhat tight/aggressive. Finished second.

    I think Tourney 2 was the hardest game to play with this tactic, tourney 3 was the easiest and tourney 1 was somewhere between those two.

    MY QUESTION IS:
    In a tourney like the second one, how can I change my strategy to a winning one?

    Below is a more extensive description of the tournaments.

    Tourney one: Played tight, didn´t hit many flops and my stack slowly decreased until I had to make a move. with 480 in my stack and mlinds meing 80/160 I went allin with AQ, just to get called by KK. I didn´t get an ace on the board so I busted out in forth place, just outside the money.

    At this table, blind stealing was often transparent, at least I felt like that. I couldn´t sneak into many pots. Three people busted out in the two first hands which led to some people having large stacks, but the money didn´t concentrate to one person as I prefer. If there had been an ace on that board though, I might well have been in the money and then anything can happen.

    Tourney two: This was a really hard one. Very few busted out and when the tourney was at level 5 or 6 there were still 8 players in the game. Blind stealing was out of the question, since there was almost always a raise preflop. I didn´t get much of a hand and I busted out in sixth place with AJ all-in, beaten by a pocket pair.

    Tourney 3: This table was really passive. Once I figured that out, I could steal many limper's money at the flop. When I play ring games, I usually think "If there is a 50 % chance that everybody will fold to a pot-sized bet, it´s a correct bet." But in this case, a min bet was often enough to make everybody fold! In some cases there was one caller and when I min bet on the turn, he also folded. This gave me great odds to bet even when I didn´t have a hand and I built up I stack size big enough to not get desperate, without risking any significant money. There was a concentration of money in one stack, which I figure is always good. The passive play continued until there were just the three of us. The other two guys (mr large stack and mr smallest stack) seemed really afraid of me and folded a lot of times preflop when I raised. The funniest part was when mr smallest stack had folded 5-6 hands in a row (the blinds were quite high) and then suddenly reraised me all-in preflop. Guess if I folded? This guy soon busted out and heads up I managed to stole mr large stack´s money until I was in the lead, but then when the blinds were like 1000/2000 he reraised me allin when I held KQ. I called, he had A9 and I realized how much better that hand is heads up. I finished second.
    [/b]
  2. #2
    Really thight matches just sucks in SNGs, period ;p What site was it? Blind vs Stacksize and so on?
  3. #3
    I play at Royal Vegas.
    Initial stack size is 1,000, blinds start at 10/20, then go up to 20/40, 40/160, 160/320, 320/640, 640/1280, and finally 960/1920 or something like that.

    Just have to tell you, today I played again and won! I actually prefer being the small stack when you´re heads-up in the endgame, as you have nothing to lose and thus it is easier to be aggressive.

    This was pretty fun!

    W.
  4. #4
    I have been playing there as well and some good points I have found is that in the beging, 10/20-20/40-40/80 with over 6 players, you should play REALLY tight. Don't waste chips here cus you will need them later! Limp AK from UTG for an exampel, almost never bluff or rep a flop you dident hit. BUT when you choose to play a hand play it really agressive, lets say you have QQ,KK or AA raise BIG from any position maybe 10xBB or something, (never limp-re-raise)! Play safe! (Small pairs and Axs might work fine for a limp- latepositon on the lowest levels..)

    When the blinds goes up to 80/160 and its shorthanded, steal a lot! Min-raise anything AA to 72o with possition on the right players (never limp, without AA/KK!). Its now your going to build a big stack for the bubbel and ITM-play. Raise the same pre-flop on ANY holding and often the min-raise is enough. Adjust your startinghands for shorthanded play is really importent, for an exampel always raise with AK and AQ (If everyone fold show theese cards for the fish)... If your small stacked here, lets say 500-600, dont bother the min-raise, move all in instead. One thing to remeber is that some fish acutally looves to call all-ins but hasitate when faced with the min-raise. Its importent to buy a lot of pots post-flop on this level, always rep the ace, and push on weakness! If you find yourself smallstacked postflop with just about as many chips you would need for a normal sized raise, try bet half the pot or something instead, many players think that you want them to call and will lay it down... NO nuclear bluff all-ins in 1 sec on a low flop, such moves will kill you!

    On the bubbel many peopel will say that you should play REALLY tight and "sneak" in to the money. This is viritually never true. Ofcourse you should NOT be calling anyting at this level, without premium-cards, atleast preflop. BUT you should STEAL all the time if you got a bigstack. And try to find a good position to dubbel up if your THE small stack, dont be afraid of AK or AQ... Just go allin for the win. If there is this one guy on the verge of going out, then wait for him, but otherwise play to win the thing!

    ITM you should play like a manic WPT stile, period! Like they say, gambel for first and settle for third!

    /sry bad english
  5. #5
    Great advice, I really appreciate it! I think what often decides whether you´ll be in the money or not is figuring out which players you could steal from in the middle stages of the tournament. The first part you could follow rules like folding anything but XX and ITM you just got to be aggressive, but in the shorthanded game at level around level five you have to spot out people able to fold to your raise.

    Very good post, thanks a lot!

    W.
  6. #6
    Thats very true! When you write your notes and reads on players the "steal potential" is the lines I try to find as fast as possible! The hardest player to play with in a SNG is always the guy who plays like you and me, tight in the begining but loosiegosie in the end... And the worst tabel to play at is the ultra tight one, it sometimes feels like a crap shot when the game has 6+ players at level 5, but the times when you win at level 3 will make it worth your while...

    Let me know how your doing later, post some ITM stats ^^
  7. #7
    Obertray Guest
    My opinion for what its worth.

    Your question was about the second game. You said there was almost always a raise before the flop. For me, as the blinds get big enough to matter, I like to control the game. The game u describe seems to fit into the LA style, I would play TA and push large reraises with hands like AA KK QQ AK and even JJ. Force people to respect you, if u get called your likely to have the best of it, if you dont get called you can loosen up as the blinds get even bigger. Some people dont like AK, but I think it is a very powerful all in hand pre flop in a SNG. I would however be cautious with AQ etc ... Tight early, or at the right kind of table u can limp alot, see lots of flops and wait for a good one. Oh yeah ... dont bet the pot size unless u think u have a better than 60% chance of winning if u are called. Betting half the pot(as Joke said) is more than enough to make draws lousy callers, and its a good bluff size bet too.

    I cant really tell, but if these guys are just bad players than playing tight but very agressive might pay off big time.

    It sounds like that table was not the best place for simi-bluffing, or bluffing. Also ... against good players I would be careful about min raising with position during the mid game, I try to keep my raises constantly around 3XB and only steal the blinds when I have a reasonable hand, at least level 4(try not to be obvious, I punish blind stealers). This is really a matter of style I guess.

    As for bubble play, if one guy is really SSed, you prolly want to avoid going against the big stacks, even if u r one of them. And you might want to call him with a less than steller hand, if u can get rid of him cheaply(sometimes everyone will call, and check to the river just to get rid of the SS and ITM). If you both are short stacked, than u want to be careful with your all in hand, someone will def call you. If you have a shot at making 1st or 2nd, you should play to win and not worry about the bubble(take advantage of peoples tightness).

    ITM is def LA time, dont be afraid to bet, dont be afraid to call. Aces are golden, kings are good, any pp is worth betting. This is where reading your opponents is really important, dont just bet like mad, but be ready to put it all in, the worst mistake is to constantly fold. Even more so HU. But then again it all depends on how high the blinds are at this stage, in crappy games sometimes u can get to the end with relatively small blinds(compaired to the stack sizes). Then you are pritty much forced to play post flop, being too agressive and betting too much pre flop here can cost you.

    What do people think of this advice?
  8. #8
    very good indeed! To explain way I make min-raises in the midgame is the blind/stack size on primapoker... Its a huge difference here! On a normal tabel 5 players @ the 160/330 level is very normal. On this stage (if I dident flop a whopper or got a good preflop hand early on) my stack might be around 1000 - 1500 chips. The preflop min-raise will be 640 chips!! Thats about half-1/3 of my stack... Bet more than that dont give you any more folding equility, you just invest more in the pot. Even at the 80/160 level a mid-raise will be 320, thats a 3rd of a 1000 chip stack, and its these guys you should steal from... Not the ones with 3500 chips. On this stage everything seems to be about raising the right player with a small stack.

    One more importent point to remeber... Bet at the pot if the BB just calls your raise and then checks the flop, and RE-RAISE if the BB calls to the flop and then just min-raise! If he calls your big raise on the flop, just hope you got chips enough to fire again on the turn, its dangerous and very read-depending, but when these moves gose by with success you will win the SNG... You dont even need one good hand!

    But postflop you should imo never minbet...
  9. #9
    ohh and one more thing about tabel 2 you faced, Its NOT somthing you will encounter every time you play at prima, most of the time they seem to suck really hard and go out in a "lemmeltåg" if you know what I mean ;p
  10. #10
    Obertray Guest
    Ahh ... that is a very different blind structure than the one I am used to, your post makes more sence to me now. Thanks
  11. #11
    ohh and one more thing about tabel 2 you faced, Its NOT somthing you will encounter every time you play at prima, most of the time they seem to suck really hard and go out in a "lemmeltåg" if you know what I mean ;p
    Lol I see what you mean!
    I have now played 10 SnG's and Í think I´m doing pretty well so far. It´s funny, I´ve been in the money every other time, exactly. These are my results:

    # Date Buy-in Place Win
    1 2005-01-07 $2.5 4 $0
    2 2005-01-07 $2.5 2 $6
    3 2005-01-07 $2.5 6 $0
    4 2005-01-07 $2.5 3 $4
    5 2005-01-08 $2.5 6 $0
    6 2005-01-08 $2.5 1 $10
    7 2005-01-08 $5.5 4 $0
    8 2005-01-09 $5.5 1 $25
    9 2005-01-09 $5.5 6 $0
    10 2005-01-09 $5.5 2 $15


    Invested $37
    Won $60
    Net gain $23

    I also have a bankroll question. What do you think is a sufficient BR for SnG's? I currently have about $80, which means 16 buy-ins for the $5+$0.50 SnG's I´m playing. I think that´s enough, But how much would I need to go up to the $10+$1 level? 15 buy-ins? 10? 20?

    How do your downswings look like? How many tourneys in a row have you been outside the money? Need to be prepared when it comes...

    Thankful for advice,
    W.
  12. #12
    nice stats! keep up the good work! really nice that you managed to start with the 5.5, the rake is a lot nicer there... more to win! But you have a big enough bankroll to absorb losses right? losing streaks can be a really pain in the ass, tank up to at least 100 $ or so!
  13. #13
    FlyingSaucy's Avatar
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    yea, your bankroll is a little low to be playing $5.50 SnG's, but not ungodly low. I'd stick to the 2.5's for a while until you get it over at least $100. I've seen really bad streaks at $10 sngs, something like 10% ITM over 20 games. That sucks and it is hard to absorb a bad streak like that with only 16 buy ins.
  14. #14
    yeah, I think you guys are right. The last four games I have only been in the money once and I think my play is affecting my play. I don´t play relaxed when thinking that I need to keep winning.

    So I go for the 2+.50 for a while

    W.

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