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The leap from 5nl to 10nl

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  1. #76
    If you can't beat 2nl, you can't beat 5nl (or 10nl, etc).
    Quote Originally Posted by Carroters
    Take it Doyle, take it!
  2. #77
    couple of points from the screenshot.
    1. why aren't you auto rebuying so that when you do hit your premium hands (JJ top right)you have a full stack to be playing with.
    2. if your playing 6 max you need to open up a bit and raise hands 18/3 (68) top right ,15/6(33) bottom left 33/14(57 hands) top left.....implies you are limp calling way too often
    3. bottom left table , looks like you have postion on the 55/0 fish and a post flop calling station on your left and you are playing virtually the tightest on the table.
  3. #78
    Oh yeah, i was all over that 55/0 but like i say, got no cards, just fold fold fold.

    I think some tilt also affected things.

    Auto-rebuy... hmm.. probably just wasn't too focused on that but also, when i'm losing so bad, having a nice full stack to donate to someone does play on my mind. Bear in mind i'm stuck in a weird 6 buy-in spew hole.

    Let me put it this way, the amount of times i've gone: yes, all in... WOT?!!?!!! is rediculous.
  4. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by dranger7070
    If you get Teamviewer and Skype, I wouldn't mind doing a sweat session. I didn't spend much time at 5nl but I am currently beating 10nl for a decent clip. (A lot of that is due to positive variance, but I'll take what I can get ). Hit me up on AIM, MSN, or PM me if you end up getting the software.

    And Micro, are you talking about me sweating you? or did someone else do it? And on that note, STOP CHECK CALLING ON THE FLOP AND TURN WITH THE NUTS IF YOU EXPECT ALL THE MONEY TO BE IN BY/ON THE RIVER. lol Carry on.
    I flat called I was in position.

    Wonderland if I had to guess your biggest mistakes are postflop.
  5. #80
    Stacks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
    Wonderland if I had to guess your biggest mistakes are postflop.
    Obviously.
  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
    Wonderland if I had to guess your biggest mistakes are postflop.
    Obviously.
    lol of course, but I'm not sure if he's realized it yet
  7. #82
    thing is, it's hard to say when running bad against a sea of tags.

    when there was a fair mix/range of player skill a few weeks ago, and i wasn't running bad, having watched a few spenda vids, my post flop game was quite nice and profitable.

    But carrying that technique through to this week has yielded bad results.

    Ok, so last night i went down to 2nl for a laugh. Man it was so interesting to go back, gave me a whole new perspective on what 5nl was like. I want to make a full post on my findings of the nuances of 2, 5 and 10 one day.

    Firstly there was almost no PFR at times. Secondly everyone would be happy to call pre flop and fold post flop. Thirdly people would look you up with 2nd/3rd pair. Other than that there'd be no concept of value betting, either donk bet with a set or all in with one. Easy fold, easy call. People call with just about anything, they don't realise you're PFR means strength, they just think you're being cute.

    Now then. I was STILL getting no cards, but i was just dominating every table, was 4-tabling and just going BAM BAM BAM with air, not bullying, they were just weak and i was representing anything i could. I get AK and the flop comes down 33J, in a 3 way pot, i fire and everyone puts me on a 3.

    In my experience the fish ratios between the levels are:
    2nl - 85%
    5nl - 35-45%
    10nl - 25-35%

    I wonder if it's based on time of day. I play during the early part of the afternoon for the States (i live in the uk) so maybe i should be playing poker late in my evening when the US has come home from work? The time factor has been playing on my mind lately. I am always playing during US working hours.

    I mean look at my link above and tell me that's what you'd expect from 5nl?

    Now i'm not moaning, incase it comes across that way, i'm just trying to get into the core of what these micro level actually mean, who's playing them and how to beat them. Table selection is becoming like a #1 priority these days, getting out of tag tables.... and this is all begging the question, when will the online poker world become just one big unprofitable tag fest?

    I ask this question based on these two concepts:
    1. In a world as dark as ours, i've noticed people will sell their own grandmother to get out of the 9-5 grind. Poker is therefore a seductive prospect to a lot of people.
    2. Online forums and video sites offer sudden leaps in learning that would have otherwise taken years from reading and practising.

    oh and 3. I do hear a lot of people say that online poker is either getting harder or not as fishy as it used to be.
  8. #83
    well im still convinced the play is utterly horrible.
    im also convinced that I play like shit and need immediate help.
    i also admit this depsite the fact that 10nl is swarming with fish.

    ive played more hands at 10nl than you.
  9. #84
    TAG != unprofitable

    And while we're at it

    Tight != TAG

    Tight-weak is FAR more common than TAG at the micros. If you can only make money against stations then you're doing it wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by wonderland
    In my experience the fish ratios between the levels are:
    2nl - 85%
    5nl - 35-45%
    10nl - 25-35%
    What are you basing this on? VPIP%?

    Here's my estimation (I'm on the iPoker network):
    2nl - 98%
    5nl - 85%
    10nl - 80%
    20nl - 70%
    I'm basing this on post-flop skill, not VPIP. Starting hand selection is day 1 of the poker academy, and I've yet to see many people that have evolved beyond it.
    Congratulations, you've won your dick's weight in sweets! Decode the message in the above post to find out how to claim your tic-tac
  10. #85
    yeah, not played too many hands @ 10 so that is a rough guess.

    and yes i think what i mean is not SO much skill as either tightness or aggressiveness, but mainly the vp.

    Ok so my new thing is delayed cbet, gets more credibility. Lately every fucker has been either raising my cbet or calling it. Then i'm sat on the turn with no cards, a cold icy breeze and no friends, the sound of my own blinking echoing into a frozen dark blue void. Oh poker God... i have never prayed to your before... i have no tongue for it....

    Sorry, got a little bored there.
  11. #86
    Stacks's Avatar
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    My estimations.. Fish = Hughe losers over the long run... Bad reg = reg who is either a small loser, BE, or barely +, without RB. Good reg = Winning player who does not need RB to show a significant profit.

    200nl = Fish - 70%, Bad reg - 25%, Good Reg - 5%
    100nl = Fish - 80%, Bad reg - 17%, Good Reg - 3%
    ...

    Poker might not be as profitable as it used to be, but damnit sooooo many people still suck. I honestly suck at poker and I am considered to be one of the "good" regs at my stakes. When I say suck, I'm not comparing my skill level to the others skill levels, because if that were the case then I'm good at my stakes. I'm comparing my skill level and number of mistakes made to a perfect, or near perfect, poker game. And by doing so, I am playing a shitload of mistakes, which makes me suck.

    Also wonderland.... There is this thing in poker called variance. The crazy thing about it is that it makes things really hard to understand over the short run.
  12. #87
    fucking fascinating. 100nl 80% fish.

    I need this hope coz, while really trying, REALLY trying to remain objective, i'm scratching my head and starting to hear negative voices telling me.... well, y'know, unprofitable things.

    Due to be sweated by Dranger tomorrow, i'm the sort of player that needs the personal touch, i don't get so much from written stuff, i miss things. Videos are also good. I meant what i said before Stacks, i would love to see you make a video, really. Not so i can just bum some free tuition, but i want to see your thought process and stuff.
  13. #88
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    Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
    I'm not likely to do a video anytime in the near future tbh. At least not one by myself. While I know I play a profitable game up to and including 200nl FR, I honestly do not consider my game solid enough to be steering other people in such a direct way (having me tell people what play to make and when throughout a session). The thing is, I rarely have answers. Only deeper and more involving questions. It's one of those "The closer you get to the rabbit hole, the more you begin to see how deep the rabbit hole really is". Basically, I don't think I've stepped close enough yet.

    However, I'm thinking of maybe grabbing another reg I know and doing some sort of video possibly. But we will have to see.
  14. #89
    so, just one more thing before i start grinding 2nl then 5nl again.

    time of day.... any comments? i've been playing at around mid day east US time.
  15. #90
    I think the best time to play is when you are playing your best, or feel the most comfortable playing.

    For me, first thing in the morning, or even in the late morning is a really bad time, I'm usually much better in the evenings - more focused, make less mistakes. But it depends on you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carroters
    Take it Doyle, take it!
  16. #91
    Time of day affects play.

    Anyway, just a quick recap for those who are still following this apeshit long thread which has become the differences between micro stakes.

    I just went down to 2nl to see how that goes. Since last night i'm up 8 buy-ins! SHOOTING FISH... literally. I've gone back up to having 20 buy-ins @ 10nl.

    But.

    What i'm gonna do is, get back into 5nl and work up a 30 buy-in bankroll for 10nl. I need to work on some fundamentals before i tackle the harshness of 10! .... lol??

    I would play more 2nl but it's making me a terrible player, i play AWFUL at those stakes.

    Ok, love to all, thanks for eeeeveryone who contributed to this thread, specially stacks and dranger (the later for offering to sweat me).

    Expect more from me on the deconstruction of the mirco stakes and my observations thereof.
  17. #92
    For you time of day ?, usually PM/REALLY early morning (2-6am) EST/US time are REALLY fishy time of day and is when I do most of my grinding. For you, running GMT, its probably something like 5-11am. Try out those times sometime and I think you will notice a BIG difference.
  18. #93
    this thread is hawt
  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucothefish
    I've sat and played at nitty tables at $10NL (3% p/f), yes they do exist and every time I'm online I could point out at least one in ten tables with a single digit p/f%. They are the exception not the rule. Naturally $10NL players will be a higher standard than $5NL, even if it's not by much, so yes play will appear tighter.

    Protip: On a supernit table, your showdown hands go down in value and your junk goes up in value. I've achieved incredible BB/100 just by representing scare cards on tables like this (nits folding sets ftmfw) with absolute, complete air. Just LAG it up and bully the shit out of everyone until they lower their calling range against you, then BAM remind them why they used to fold TPGK to a hefty raise in the first place. Tiltarrific.
    I'll bite. What are the best HU resources for someone who knows nothing about HU play? I wouldn't mind starting a table if I didn't feel like I was just flipping a coin every time I played HU.

    EDIT: I didn't realize this thread had a second page, so I didn't read any of those replies before posting.
  20. #95
    Wonderland, just got through this LOOOONNNG thread, and I'll sweat you, but making our schedules match might be difficult.

    FWIW, the higher I go, the more poker is about ranges - Level 1 thinking of "what does he have?" At 50nl, you can show a profit imo by simply playing "cards face up" correctly, in other words simply making the right bets/calls/folds based on his range and your holdings. The players who can do that are less than 1% of the player pool at 10nl. Heck, I sucked at it when I was crushing 10nl.

    When you add in a touch of playing your range against his range, you profit more, but it's not necessary. Get good at picking up player tendencies and guessing what he could have. The more times you go to show down and have his range down to something specific like "he's got pp's 66 - 88 or a weak Ace" and are CORRECT, the more you'll just sit back and profit from the mistakes around you.

    I honestly run into less than 10% solid players at 50nl. When I lose, it's 90% me playing like dog poop and 10% variance. And folks often underestimate the influence of positive variance on their winrate, attributing too much of their wins to skills and too little of their losses to poor play.
  21. #96
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    This statement is wrong.
    The leap from 5nl to 10nl
    Why? There is no leap. Its just an imaginary wall you set up in your head, and now you have trouble "jumping over" or "smashing through".
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


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  22. #97
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    Of course, it's not a leap, it's a step
  23. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    This statement is wrong.
    The leap from 5nl to 10nl
    Why? There is no leap. Its just an imaginary wall you set up in your head, and now you have trouble "jumping over" or "smashing through".
    This was VERY true for me at the "jump" to 25nl. I set myself for failure by making it too big a deal - too invested in success, too worried about losing, too uptight about the increase in skill. Excellent point, sir.

    I need to drop by Jack's Bar for a liter of Bass one of these days.

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