Draw to the Nuts... JohnGotti Style.

[Genitruc]

There is 1 situation that has been bothering me more than most over the past couple of weeks, partly because I've run badly when it's happened but mainly because all options seem bad on a theoretical level.

I raise with Ax (offsuit - this is important to the discussion) and a tight player calls in position. Flop comes monotone giving me nut flush draw. I c-bet and face aggression from the nit in position.

There are 2 huge and obvious problems with this situation :

1 - The nit almost definitely has all 1-pair hands beaten, so my over (Ace usually) isn't live. I am drawing to 9 outs at best.

2 - If I hit my 18% draw after calling the flop 3-bet, I will have an extremely tough time getting paid off. Who hasn't folded a set/good 2 pair while puking on a 4-flush board?

This is obviously easier vs an aggro postflop, who could presumably be playing back at me with a weaker draw or with air. But even if the person playing back at you is aggro, what line do you like and why?

I'm wondering if the most +ev solution isn't to just to fold the nut draw. But that just seems soooooo weak.

Thoughts?

[nutsinho]

why would you be raising Ax offsuit out of position?

[Warpe]

why would you be playing Ax offsuit out of position?

fyp

[Robert]

why would you be raising Ax offsuit out of position?

I think hero is talking about hands like AKo, AQo, AJo - I raise these hands from every position. Hero could also be talking about raising Ace-low off suit from the CO, which is allright if the button is a nit.

[Genitruc]

why would you be raising Ax offsuit out of position?

I think hero is talking about hands like AKo, AQo, AJo - I raise these hands from every position. Hero could also be talking about raising Ace-low off suit from the CO, which is allright if the button is a nit.

"x" as in any card not an ace

[Genitruc]

also

lol @ useful replies that have nothing to do with crux of subject.

[Robert]

Folding the flop with the nutflush draw OOP is almost mandatory, if you dont have the pot odds to call with just the flushdraw because you will have a hard time getting paid of OOP if you turn your flush (your implied odds are almost zero).
Shoving the flop over his reraise is also an option, but its a line I very rarely take because I dont believe you have much folding equity in these spots.

[gabe]

also

lol @ useful replies that have nothing to do with crux of subject.

lol @ you being ignorant

[Genitruc]

comon gabe

seriously

i m starting to think you think i m a real dick or something. which you probably do after i got pissed little while back. hmmm. oh well guess the damage is done.

but jesus christ man look at OP and ask yourself wtf does raising Ax or not have to do with the subject?

guess i maybe am a dick. oh well.

[Warpe]

also

lol @ useful replies that have nothing to do with crux of subject.

Pardon me, but when you say "Axo", that's anything from A2o up. Be more specific if that's not what you mean.

[Genitruc]

i agree robert. i m just such an over-aggro donk sometimes i think zomg i have draw to the nuts i m all in!!!

[elipsesjeff]

comon gabe

seriously

i m starting to think you think i m a real dick or something. which you probably do after i got pissed little while back. hmmm. oh well guess the damage is done.

but jesus christ man look at OP and ask yourself wtf does raising Ax or not have to do with the subject?

guess i maybe am a dick. oh well.

If you never raise with Ax (with X less than T) OOP, you're never in this situation. So you avoid the problem altogether! AJ on a 3flush J high board is a lot stronger than A7 on a 7 high 3flush board, though, so its best to distinguish between the two as how big your TP here is relatively.

[Genitruc]

Warpe : should have been more specific I guess. The "x" in "Ax" meant exactly that (x being any non-ace). The reason the "offsuitedness" was important is that your flushdraw is completely transparent on a monotone flop.

I'm thinking a two-tone flop changes things dramatically since at least you're more likely to get paid by 2pair/sets.

Maybe it's my time of the month or something seems like i'm unusually grumpy/impatient. sry all.

[mcatdog]

What did this guy do to deserve such hostile responses to his thread? Do you guys really not raise hands like AT and A9 from the cut-off when the button is a nit? Seems like an auto-raise to me.

[AHiltz]

So, let's say you have Ad3s and opp has 8c8h and board comes Kd8d5d.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 28.2828 % 28.28% 00.00% { Ad3s }
Hand 2: 71.7172 % 71.72% 00.00% { 8c8h }

Shoving would not be best here at all.

[Ravageur]

why would you be raising Ax offsuit out of position?

Rofl, I'm raising Ax when folded to lots and so do many profitable 6 max players. Obviously not all aces, but a lot of them. And yes, they're winning hands for me.
As far as this situation, it's probably a fold against most opponents and a re-raise/push against some.

And yeah, the point of his post was what to do once you get resistance on the flop. Whether to raise it preflop or not was not the question.

Lol at u being ignorant as well Sir Gabe.

[gabe]

but jesus christ man look at OP and ask yourself wtf does raising Ax or not have to do with the subject?

connect the dots...if you arent sure read what jeff just wrote

[Genitruc]

plz see a few replies up :

Warpe : should have been more specific I guess. The "x" in "Ax" meant exactly that (x being any non-ace). The reason the "offsuitedness" was important is that your flushdraw is completely transparent on a monotone flop.

[Ravageur]

1 - The nit almost definitely has all 1-pair hands beaten, so my over (Ace usually) isn't live. I am drawing to 9 outs at best.

Why does it matter what X is? The poster made it clear that his second card was irrelevant because his read is that villain has 1-pair beaten.

The only thing that's relevant is that you have an over and the nut flush draw...what are your options. So I don't see why we need to fiddle over if you had A9 or A2.

[Warpe]

Warpe : should have been more specific I guess. The "x" in "Ax" meant exactly that (x being any non-ace). The reason the "offsuitedness" was important is that your flushdraw is completely transparent on a monotone flop.

I'm thinking a two-tone flop changes things dramatically since at least you're more likely to get paid by 2pair/sets.

Trouble is, anyone that's hit that flop hard with 2-pair/a set or has an overpair is going to/should play it fast. I'm inclined to check/call in these situations to keep the pot under control, fold if I'm not getting odds (which will be most of the time). A more aggro option would be to check/raise and rep a made flush...

[Ravageur]

[/quote]If you never raise with Ax (with X less than T) OOP, you're never in this situation. So you avoid the problem altogether! AJ on a 3flush J high board is a lot stronger than A7 on a 7 high 3flush board, though, so its best to distinguish between the two as how big your TP here is relatively.[/quote]

WTF?!!! Where in the original post do we talk about having Top Pair? I'm just as baffled as Genitruc here. People just seem to be replying to some imaginary post. Obviously if you have top pair and the nut flush draw it makes a big fucking difference. But that's not what we're talking about here is it?

I think we can blame it on the fact that the words RIPJohnGotti were in the subject of the post thus forecasting certain doom on all replies.

[Robert]

guys, lets cut the drama and talk poker.

And I agree with a lot of guys here, raising AT and A9 from the CO when button is a nit close to standard.
And to sum up my answer to heros question: folding >>> shoving >>>>>>>> calling.

And to Ahiltz - if we shove its not for value, but because we believe we have folding equity and we semibluff.

[euphoricism]

I like your idea about the fold. I think I call here too much, and end up folding the turn UI, and he folds when I hit. Nothing gained, lots lost.

[Genitruc]

haha seriously i m with you Robert.

I think everyone's just going insane now that Party has shut down U.S. Traffic.

Also I thought my OP was pretty clear but apparently it was written in Swahili or something. Gotta work on that.

[Ravageur]

guys, lets cut the drama and talk poker.

And I agree with a lot of guys here, raising AT and A9 from the CO when button is a nit close to standard.
And to sum up my answer to heros question: folding >>> shoving >>>>>>>> calling.

And to Ahiltz - if we shove its not for value, but because we believe we have folding equity and we semibluff.

Yeah calling is definitely the worse option here. Anything else is ok sometimes I think. Gabe actually posted a hand a while back that exemplified this exact situation in which he 3-bet pushed the flop. The replies to that thread are applicable here.

[Genitruc]

Warpe I think the c/r flop is a line that has some sexiness to it.

Only prob is you don't get to take the pot down the 99% of the time the nit doesn't have a flopped monster.

[Genitruc]

mods plz lock this thread so I can concentrate on watching the Lumberjack challenge.

[gabe]

rav/gen,
the 2nd card is onyl irrelevant if it is a rag, which is why so many people are saying it matters because you could be making alot of preflop mistakes. you both can keep acting like you are on some new level and we are all fools for mentioning such things but that wouldn't be helpful or constructive for anyone

[Genitruc]

gabe this has nothing to do with the "level" I'm on and everything to do with the situation described in OP.

The situation is YOU HAVE NUT FLUSH DRAW NO PAIR ON FLOP AND FACE AGGRESSION FROM NIT.

That is all. I stated "Ax" meaning A2, A3, A4, A5... AQ and AK. I clarified this point (Robert did, actually) a few replies down after it became clear I hadn't been specific enough in OP.

Whether I'm raising A2o utg or not is completely besides the point.

[Ravageur]

rav/gen,
the 2nd card is onyl irrelevant if it is a rag, which is why so many people are saying it matters because you could be making alot of preflop mistakes. you both can keep acting like you are on some new level and we are all fools for mentioning such things but that wouldn't be helpful or constructive for anyone

uhh....all i said was that what we're talking about is what to do with this PRECISE situation : An over/nut flush draw facing heat.

THAT'S IT!!! It's not complicated. We can talk about preflop mistakes in another thread if you want...

As far as being on a new level...uh...ok? Feel free to make this into a 'who's penis is bigger' (I fold to you preflop) but plz try to deny that many posters have ignored what this thread is about, and have decided to focus on something that has nothing to do with the situation Genitruc put forth.

It is clear that Ax means that you have 1 over on the flop and NO pair. Thus it could be AQ on a King high flop or A2. Does that change anything? Plz exlain me how?

[Ravageur]

LMAO, we just wrote the exact same post.

Gabe just got gangbanged.

[Genitruc]

k seriously let's not let this become tribal wars ffs.

I'd be more than happy to drop it and focus on the female component of the Stihl Lumberjack Challenge that is just heating up as we spaek.

[gabe]

i dont think i can reach you

[Genitruc]

gabe i really, really want to stop this shit.

but that last post is just too much.

fyp : "I'm wrong but I'll pretend like it's really complicated or that original poster is extremely stubborn and make a dismissive post implying somehow someone doesn't get something that I'm saying".

for the love of god man give me a break

why do i take you so seriously so that it tilts me when you write stupid shit like this?

[gabe]

what do i have to be wrong about? my last post was serious....you two dont have the slighest notion as to why people are hinting at things that dont directly answer your broad question. then your friend has the nerve to tell me i got gangbanged after both of you make responses still ignoring the hints??? wtf is that. i know you two are buds but that shit is just stupid.

the truth is you (and now i see your friend is the same) act like an ass when people are trying to help you, which is completely retarded. why should i try? i TRY to give advice all the time and the only thing i really expect is not to be disrespected.

if anyone else besides rav/gen want to talk about this i'd love to, but you aren't worth the waste in time.

[Genitruc]

i can't vouch for rav gloatingly stating you "got gangbanged". that's his business.

If someone is interested in this kind of soap opera stuff and feels like rereading the thread and giving their opinion that would be cool.

if you are familiar with the hundreds of posts i ve made on ftr I think it's unfair to say that I act like an ass when people are trying to help me.

I got pissy with you in a recent post and in this post I tried to point the replies back to the initial question in a bitchy way.

I haven't been a poster for as long as you but I would hope that many posters are comfortable enough with me for me to be cajoling/bitchy/pissy because the ego-jousting is fun without ppl thinking I'm trying to go for their jugular.

[gabe]

ok thats fair

[mcatdog]

I think this had the potential to be a good thread before everyone had a hissy fit. Jesus, people.

Genitruc, are you are you talking about a flop like 7 3 2 or a flop like K Q J? Obviously, there's a huge difference between the two in terms of how much folding equity you're likely to have if you come over the top all-in.

If your opponent is a pathetic nit who never raises the flop without a monster hand that he'll definitely call-in with, then just fold. Against an aggressive opponent, you stand to have more fold equity, so you should play back at him sometimes with a weak draw like this. But you can't do it every time you have a weak draw, or you'll find yourself all-in as an underdog more often than not. Try to figure out what his range is and how much fold equity you have against it, and come up with the best % of the time to semi-bluff in order to exploit the way he plays. Once I've decided that I want to raise 50% and fold 50% in this situation, I honestly might just flip a coin in order to make it impossible for him to get a read on me. Agreed that calling is awful, you don't have any implied odds and the only value of your hand is that you have folding equity and outs.

[Genitruc]

I'm curious as to why you think how many high cards there are on the flop makes a difference mcat.

Would we have more or less fold equity vs a nit/aggro depending on this factor?

Is it because on the low flop ppl are more likely to be playing back with foldable overpairs?

[elipsesjeff]

WTF?!!! Where in the original post do we talk about having Top Pair? I'm just as baffled as Genitruc here. People just seem to be replying to some imaginary post. Obviously if you have top pair and the nut flush draw it makes a big fucking difference. But that's not what we're talking about here is it?

The original post was edited!!!! I really don't know where I pulled that from, but maybe i just assumed because he said "raiser has all 1 pair hands beaten" which is completely untrue.

Frankly, this isn't that difficult to understand. Will he fold to a push? If yes, push, if not, don't push. If not, are you getting pot odds to call? If yes, call; if no, fold. Usually your opponent will give you good odds to call with his aggression, and I can't associate a raise from a tight player to automatically mean two pair or better. What does this tight player call with? Broadway cards, pocket pairs, monsters, who knows?

And where do you get 18% draw on the flop in the OP?

The type of flop does matter somewhat. Is villain more likely to have a set on a 247 board or a JQK board facing a preflop raise and he just flat calls? Which is he likely to have two pair more often?

This is really nothing more than a pot odds/folding equity situation.

[Fnord]

I want my 2 min of life back.

[Robert]

Genitruc,

What about c/r this flop instead of just c-betting`? I'm wondering if c-betting this kind of flop is less profitable instead of checkraising. I know the correct answer depends on what exactly is on the board, but checkraising might yield more opportunities than just c-betting.
Anyway, I'm drunk right now, but I thought a lot on this hand tonight, so I just wanted to post my thoughts.

[Genitruc]

my condolences Fnord. sry for my part in those 2 mins being flushed down the toilet.

[Robert]

I would also like to say that I like both gabe and genitruc, and I think they are both contributing g00t to this forum. Thx guys!

[Genitruc]

Jeff :

not sure bout the OP being edited... maybe i edited in the part about the starting cards not being suited, which was important.

the 18% was just approximate chance of making flush on turn (what is it, anyways... 19% or something?)

good point about the texture of the flop. Seems like a nit will more likely have 2 pair on a KQ9 ish flop and a set on a 248 ish flop. Still doesn't really change the equity calculations all that much. The big diff is prob that a nit will be able to find a fold of 2 pair when possible flush/straight on board but almost never with a set.

therefore, maybe more fold equity on the high card board?

Robert, yeah I think the c/r is an interesting line but not sure it's all that more +ev than just c-betting since the nit will fold so often to the c-bet.

[Genitruc]

oops just realized u were joking bout OP being edited Jeff

god i m thick.

[Robert]

Genitruc,

When you say he's a nit, does that mean he's def. not tag (especially in regards to postflop aggression)? What is his stats and over how many hands?
What makes any other moves than c-betting the flop intersting is that your hand has some value (including showdown value with ace-high) but it cant really stand aggression on the flop that gives you insufficiont pot odds to call.

[Genitruc]

Genitruc,

When you say he's a nit, does that mean he's def. not tag (especially in regards to postflop aggression)? What is his stats and over how many hands?
What makes any other moves than c-betting the flop intersting is that your hand has some value (including showdown value with ace-high) but it cant really stand aggression on the flop that gives you insufficiont pot odds to call.

by nit i mean someone who will rarely - if ever - 3 bet post-flop without 2 pair or better and will fold a lot of marginal holdings on a flop (someone not prone at all to float). Many of these players are small winners even at nl400 because the fish pay them off (and aggro donks like me do all too often). I'm not sure what stats these would translate to but prob something like 15/9/0.8 over 100+ hands.

The point is, when faced with 3-bet aggression from this type of player, it's either his "big move" of the night or a flopped monster.

Usually, this kind of player will simply smooth-call things like 2nd pair or a hidden pp (i.e. JJ on K-high board).

Since we hold the Ace for the a-high flush it's unlikely the nit is making a pair + flushdraw type move (possibly w k-high draw but not even sure bout that).

I do like the c/raise (or maybe even a check/call?) but in terms of ev, the # of times a c-bet will take down the pot or be answered by a smooth-call (building the pot for our draw yay) makes it a pretty solid option imo.

[mcatdog]

I'm curious as to why you think how many high cards there are on the flop makes a difference mcat.

Would we have more or less fold equity vs a nit/aggro depending on this factor?

Is it because on the low flop ppl are more likely to be playing back with foldable overpairs?

Yes, I think on the low flop someone is more likely to be raising with a decent suited overpair that they could fold if you went all-in. On the high card flop, it's so likely that the flop nailed your hand that I just can't fathom a nit raising without a monster.

[Renton]

i thought A9o+ were standard raising values in all positions other than blinds at sixmax

[mcatdog]

An interesting comparison from my PokerTracker database. I'd be interested to see if other people are experiencing similar results.

[Genitruc]

sooted cards are the nutz baby ; my ptracker stats are drawn from a really small sample size (26k hands) but confirm the overwhelming pwnessness of suited aces vs their offsuit step-sisters. Both suited and unsuited are profitable but suited are on avg making 2x more monies.

[Ravageur]

Dear Gabe,

I don't think I've acted like an ass on this forum...until maybe now because your condescending approach to this thread did indeed upset me. As far as the gangbang remark, it was in jest because of the timing of my and Genitruc's post and we were not colluding to embarass you etc.. but rather simply expressing our opinions.

Anyway, if you took that offensively, I apologize. I don't however apologize for everything else I've stated, because you taking the high road and dismissing anything I write strikes me as being childish. Especially since many people on this forum hold you in high regard for your obvious solid poker knowledge (I don't think anyone on this forum, me or Genitruc included, think we're on the same level as you, which is why your posts in this thread have been such a disappointment).

Lastly, if you look at the timeline of this thread, it was you that went out of your way to call Genitruc ignorant when he made a comment about the nature of the replies on this thread. The only point of your "lol at Genitruc being ignorant" post was to start a flame war, in which you have succeeded.

[Genitruc]

plz

things were just getting poker-related again...

[Genitruc]

mcat y u no post ak results? is it a net loser cuz of fish who push A10?

[elipsesjeff]

your posts in any thread have been such a disappointment

FYP.

ZING!!!!

There's a reason why he's got 41 WPP and its not because he explains himself!

[drmcboy]

guys I got my first pube today!

[Genitruc]

lol pube-aments

[Ravageur]

The original post was edited!!!! I really don't know where I pulled that from, but maybe i just assumed because he said "raiser has all 1 pair hands beaten" which is completely untrue.

This is really nothing more than a pot odds/folding equity situation.[/quote]


Heh it's all good. Re-reading my posts i no doubt overreacted for some reason. Anyway, I agree with the pot odds/fe thing. It's definitely key if the said 'nit' is capable of making any kind of a move against a Lag. If not i think it's a fold.

[gabe]

The only point of your "lol at Genitruc being ignorant" post was to start a flame war, in which you have succeeded.

no, he was laughing at people who mentioned stuff that was worth mentioning. regardless, drmcboy just pwned everybody.

[gabe]

There's a reason why he's got 41 WPP and its not because he explains himself!

FINALLY THERES SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS MEEEE

[Fnord]

i thought A9o+ were standard raising values in all positions other than blinds at sixmax

A9o-A2o are trash, they won't make enough nut hands you can go deep with.

[mcatdog]

A9o-A2o are trash, they won't make enough nut hands you can go deep with.

That's the conventional wisdom, but I have 100K hands in this database and my other one that show me winning with the offsuit Ax hands (where x >= 8 or 9, any lower than that and they really are trash) and losing with the suited connectors, even though they make more hands worthy of an all-in. I've found that I take down enough small pots with the Ax hands to make up for the big ones with the suited connectors. I'd be really interested to see if someone had some evidence going the other way, instead of just generic words of wisdom.

[Genitruc]

I think A8-A10 (and sometimes AJ) can be fun hands to play passively and if played that way (after raising preflop when folded to) can't get you into too much trouble. I think it was Matros who did some mathematical calculations showing that A8 and up can be profitable 5-handed and less... Guess it's because there are more aces below 8 than above 8 so the fish who play any ace will pay you off with worse aces and you can control pots and lose the min when you're outkicked.

mcat I know you're into meta-game and I think good players who see you'll raise A8 and such will give you less respect. def a good thing.

[Ravageur]

I just looked in my PokerTracker and here are some numbers Mcat.

A90 = 0.19 BB/hand WINNER

A80 = 0.19 BB/hand LOSER

A70 = 0.6 BB/hand WINNER

A6o = 0.13 BB/hand LOSER

A5o = O.05 BB/hand WINNER

A4o = O.04 BB/hand LOSER

A3o = O.14 BB/hand LOSER

A2o = O.09 BB/hand WINNER


My suited aces are obviously bigger winners. I think what's most important are the A9, A8, A7 because I rarely raise A6 off even when folded to. I raise a9, a8, a7 when folded to depending on the table dynamics.

[gabe]

you guys dont have nearly enough stats to show anything.

fwiw i raise Ax on button when blings are tight always

[Genitruc]

I think it's important to remember for ppl looking to play an annoying lagg style that any hand you can play and break even with that isn't "premium" basically gets you more action on your monsters without losing money.

So if you can break even playing A20 then do it because the aware players will pay you off that much more.

[mcatdog]

you guys dont have nearly enough stats to show anything.

fwiw i raise Ax on button when blings are tight always

I know that, that's why I asked other people what their results have been. Even over 50K hands, one hand where a semi-bluff failed or one hand where you got sucked out on, can be the difference between that hand being profitable or unprofitable.

[Genitruc]

gabe what do you think a decent threshold for stats "meaning things" is? I don't play enough so I prob won't get there any time soon.... but like 100k hands? 150k hands? I've read lots of ubersharks saying 50-100k hands basically means nothing in terms of winrate... what do you think?

[Ravageur]

you guys dont have nearly enough stats to show anything.

fwiw i raise Ax on button when blings are tight always

I know that, that's why I asked other people what their results have been. Even over 50K hands, one hand where a semi-bluff failed or one hand where you got sucked out on, can be the difference between that hand being profitable or unprofitable.

Yah true. I should've mentioned my stats are actually for less than 50K hands since my laptop crashed and I lost my pokertracker database. That's just the last month and a half. Like 30K hands. It's be interesting to see Gabe's stats or someone who has a huge database that raises Ace-trash when folded to.

[elipsesjeff]

you guys dont have nearly enough stats to show anything.

fwiw i raise Ax on button when blings are tight always

I know that, that's why I asked other people what their results have been. Even over 50K hands, one hand where a semi-bluff failed or one hand where you got sucked out on, can be the difference between that hand being profitable or unprofitable.

Yah true. I should've mentioned my stats are actually for less than 50K hands since my laptop crashed and I lost my pokertracker database. That's just the last month and a half. Like 30K hands. It's be interesting to see Gabe's stats or someone who has a huge database that raises Ace-trash when folded to.

Given the fact that he 1) is better than all of us, 2) plays at different stakes, and 3) has better recognition of of when to and when to not play, these stats would be pretty much meaningless. Frankly, all this time spent arguing over whether A5o is playable on the button is a waste of time. Instead of arguing, go out and play poker and figure out yourself when it is best to raise over when you should fold. No better learning than doing it yourself.

Or, an even quicker method, just pokerstove your hand to see how your equity is.

[gabe]

gabe what do you think a decent threshold for stats "meaning things" is? I don't play enough so I prob won't get there any time soon.... but like 100k hands? 150k hands? I've read lots of ubersharks saying 50-100k hands basically means nothing in terms of winrate... what do you think?

for exact hands in a position you are going to need alot...300k maybe? i dont know, probably more since its such a specific type of thing.

[jackvance]

gabe what do you think a decent threshold for stats "meaning things" is? I don't play enough so I prob won't get there any time soon.... but like 100k hands? 150k hands? I've read lots of ubersharks saying 50-100k hands basically means nothing in terms of winrate... what do you think?

I think the lower the stakes, the faster you converge to a meaningful display of your winrate.

Higher stakes are typically very minimal ptBB/100 even for the "sharks" (and running at like 3ptBB/100 on a very high stake is big $$$). So the shark can easily lose money as he wiggles around his winrate of 3ptBB/100

[johnny_fish]

Real nits never raise a monotone flop in my experience. They generally flat call with a monster and raise the turn.

[Rondavu]

You have to create implied odds for your made flushes by showing good opponents you're capable of representing one you don't have. Then you can make loose calls while drawing to them sans pair outs, because you're going to overbet when the flush card hits. In a vacuum flush draws and made flushes that didn't have the extra outs beforehand suck ass.

You have to understand that the same thing which kills your implied odds on a flush also gives you a shitload of fold equity. Use that shit and flip it. Get your flushes paid off.

As played you fold when raised on the flop, because you haven't earned the right to call without pot odds.