Apparently my 22-99 are big losers? what the hell...

[Setzy]

Your aren't gonna win too much in this game if you don't learn to push your edges and grow a pair.

You know Fnord how well, exactly?

Gotta admire BigBoy's reading comprehension skills.

I'll give you the Cliffnotes version:
o No I'm not advocating laying down or soft playing sets. What I am saying is that 1% is a horrible misrepresentation of how often you lose set over set and how often a set gets busted by any hand.
o I don't claim to be a NLHE master. I just play reasonably well and beat the game for a little cash at the 100 & 200 level. Discussion of win rates is silly because there is a huge luck and table/game selection component.
o Some people post really stupid shit and I call bullshit on it with impunity. Poker puts a real mindfuck on the human mind.
o Other people have very different views of the game and are very successful. I'm aggressive in figuring out how they tick and where I may be mistaken. Sometimes I'll even take up a view I disagree with just to think things through.
o I enjoy logic problems and talking about poker.
o I've been participating in online forums in one form or another since the 2400 baud modem became widely available. I'm pretty good at being witty and holding my own in a debate reguardless of the merits of what I'm saying.
o In poker (particularly NLHE) if you can't figure out what works, understand the dabates and instead mindlessly follow advice, find another hobby.

Nice man, nice.

[Warpe]

also seems to me like you are ashamed to post your winrate. hmmm interesting for someone who thinks he knows everything about poker.

http://books.google.ca/books?ie=UTF-...OIV0gG2CgD8FGs

[Miffed22001]

why the hell are we arguing over bla bla set over set percentages instead of deciding why 22-99 are losers?

[jacbmw]

good point miffed.

my thoughts:

at lower limit NL ring (<=50NL) (especially 6-max), you 22-99 should be good winners.

early position: limp, call pre-flop raise. then 3-bet flopped set. Play for stacks. ie. get onto it like a hooker on a hard ón

late position: raise limpers, then C-Bet underpairs on rag flop. if their is a hint (even slightly) that someone else in pot may have hit it starts to become dodgy to put any more in the middle. --- This may be where u are losing on these hands.

Use your position and knowledge of the player to assess if they have hit, and either C-bet or fold like a cheap suit.

instead of getting side tracked by the statistics with set over set etc, the follow practical example should illustrate the only situation it would come up, and may change your play.

your dealt 33 in EP (DEEP STACKS), u limp and get 4 callers.

flop J53.

now JJJ is unlikely, but 555 may be a problem, and you may sniff it depending on the player but it would be hard.

lets change you pockets to 55. now if someone has JJJ there is now what u could get away from it.

[bigboy5540]

i have enough freinds in real life. im not here to make friends, just to make most of you noobs better players is all.

[bigboy5540]

and i get a kick out of how serious some of you guys take this forum lol.

[Lukie]

fnord the odds are about 1 percent when you FLOP A SET that someone else has flppped a higher set. Keep in mind that the one percent is when you actually flop a set. the math is not wrong at all. what are you talking about man???
and yes it is true when the money goes in they have a good hand but people put their money in with hands much less than sets. bottom line: don't even worry about a higher set because over the long run you will make much much much more stacking folks who have two pair, over pair, draws, or are bluffing. Take it from me. I win a lot.

If 2 players go to the flop heads up, both have a pocket pair, and you flop your set, the other guy is going to flop his about one out of 12 times.

[Lukie]

For what it's worth, the only poker books I've ever read are hoh1 and hoh2. But I'm almost exclusively a cash game player, and those books really didn't help me a great deal. One of these days I'm going to get around to TOP. And when the new sklansky/miller NLHE ring book comes out, that will be my first read. And probably reread. I don't really know of any great cash game books on the market though.

Also, bigboy, here is an example of what fnord is trying to get across (when a lot of money goes in, bottom set has more then x% chance of being beat, where x is some mathematical formula based on card combinations or whatever).

POKERSTARS GAME #4581924835: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/04/10 - 11:06:41 (ET)
Table 'Virginia III' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Lukieplaya ($379.35 in chips)
Seat 2: dbl_ac3s ($262.70 in chips)
Seat 4: arabprinzejr ($18.60 in chips)
Seat 5: floop17 ($70.80 in chips)
Seat 6: #1soccerdog ($22.80 in chips)
#1soccerdog: posts small blind $0.50
Lukieplaya: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lukieplaya [8h 8c]
dbl_ac3s: raises $2.50 to $3.50
arabprinzejr: folds
floop17: folds
#1soccerdog: folds
Lukieplaya: calls $2.50
*** FLOP *** [As Qc 8s]
Lukieplaya: bets $5
dbl_ac3s: raises $11 to $16
asspelunker joins the table at seat #3
Lukieplaya: raises $24 to $40
dbl_ac3s: calls $24
*** TURN *** [As Qc 8s] [3d]
Lukieplaya: bets $60
dbl_ac3s: raises $159.20 to $219.20 and is all-in

I'll let you decide what happened. I'll give you a hint. I called, and lost.

[gabe]

he had 24o and got there on the river?

[Fnord]

I don't really know of any great cash game books on the market though.

Read Doyle's section of SuperSystem. It's an odd read, but has some great stuff that isn't really printed anywhere else.

re: The hand posted. You're 260 deep in that hand. What's his raising range? Once we're past 160 deep I think you need to play that hand a lot slower if your opponent is any good. You're beating AQ, an over-played AK or a bluff.

[Lukie]

I don't really know of any great cash game books on the market though.

Read Doyle's section of SuperSystem. It's an odd read, but has some great stuff that isn't really printed anywhere else.

re: The hand posted. You're 260 deep in that hand. What's his raising range? Once we're past 160 deep I think you need to play that hand a lot slower if your opponent is any good. You're beating AQ, an over-played AK or a bluff.

Yeah one of these days I'm going to order up a few books on amazon and try to apply a few things to my game.. especially the before-mentioned sklansky one thats coming out soon.

About the hand, I really considered folding the turn. He had QQ which held. At the time, I asked myself "can he play AQ like this?" I obviously thought the answer was yes, but in hindsight, I think AQ folds or calls here and does not push. I agree with you that in this situation my line is far too aggro and I shouldn't be going to the felt with bottom set here. I also think I lead too much with sets and not enough with other hands and I probably have poor balance in that area, but probably not as bad as others or as bad as you think.

[underminedsk]

and i get a kick out of how serious some of you guys take this forum lol.

can you ban this guy or something? He isn't adding anything to this forum.

[aleksandr]

I'm a big fan of the little things here.

I fold 22-55 unless I'm getting 6:1 preflop. Set under set, flopped straights and flushes, that sort of thing can quickly devalue your set profits if Top Pair and 2pair aren't stacking off to you. Don't get me wrong; I'm rarely concerned about these things when I hold a set myself, but in the very long run, you lose a small chunk of your very meager profits there.

66-88 I'll play from position somewhat aggressively if I'm folded to, but weak on the flop. 99, TT, I'll play on the CO or button with many limpers or no limpers, but not with one or two without appropriate stacks. They have strong heads up value, and strong multiway value, but weaken considerably to 3 and 4 players. JJ I play aggressively with position, and will limp for sets in earlier positions.

I'll stress that playing these hands is costly out of position; some of the value from sets comes from people betting into you before you show strength. Then you have a choice to raise, or to smooth call, and great players like Brunson can create huge EV gaps when placed in these situations.

[Miffed22001]

my problem with this thread isnt that bigboy hasnt told me anything i dont know and havent seen (id love a luagh with you dude, but come on tell me something i dont know eh? )

its that we ARE SO CONCERNED WITH FLOPPING A SET AND rAISING THE FLOP.

Can we not use the set LINE by now to win a few more pots? without needing to showdown (crap i just spilt the beans didnt i? )