Floating

[Stacks]

The rest of the thread, I'm not so sure what the fuss is about. Some people need to learn modesty and respect? What, like people telling me that I'm playing cheesburger levels? Is this the modesty you refer to? There's a bit of double standards going on, that's for sure. Respect? No-one seems to respect the fact I want to play a wide range of hands, it's just "Don't play T6, idiot" and if I say I want to play loose in position, it's all "why post hands if you don't want advice?". I do want advice. I just don't want to be told what hands to play. Where's the respect coming my way? There is none at all, so why should I show anyone else any respect? Just because they're not at cheesburger levels? Maybe I'll show some respect when people stop showing me arrogance. Until then, it seems I'm destined to argue with people every other post about respect, modesty, arrogance and whatever else people want to throw my way.

Are you serious? We are telling you what hands to play because we assume you want to make +EV decisions. And some hands are +EV to play, and some are not. If you come in here asking for advice on a hand, don't expect us to pick and choose. You will get advice on all aspects of the hand, notes, etc. And it just so happens the start of the hand is whether you play it or not preflop. If you are playing -EV hands preflop intentionally, then there is really no reason to comment on the rest of the hand.

[tugger]

If you are playing -EV hands preflop intentionally, then there is really no reason to comment on the rest of the hand.

I think I could play my hand blind at the CO and BU at micros, and still make a profit. Making money is +ev, and I'm making money in late position with these hands.

I actually like you, you take the time to explain to me why you think I'm an idiot, you make some helpful and good posts. And your head isn't quite as far up your arse as some folk here. But I still think you're wrong to moan at my hand selection. I'm actually not stupid, I know T6 is bad. It doesn't matter. One more time... I DON'T WANT TO PLAY HAND CHART POKER!!! I don't want to be a robot. I want to make money, and enjoy playing, both at the same time. So I want to be able to play my late position hands. That doesn't mean any two cards, I'm not playing 82o on the button. But it means I would like to be able to raise from time to time with bad hands in position. Please, for the love of God, tell me why this is so offensive to people? Why can I not ask for advice on a hand if I have picked a poor hand to play? Is this forum exclusively for people who play tight?

[Micro2Macro]

The rest of the thread, I'm not so sure what the fuss is about. Some people need to learn modesty and respect? What, like people telling me that I'm playing cheesburger levels? Is this the modesty you refer to? There's a bit of double standards going on, that's for sure. Respect? No-one seems to respect the fact I want to play a wide range of hands, it's just "Don't play T6, idiot" and if I say I want to play loose in position, it's all "why post hands if you don't want advice?". I do want advice. I just don't want to be told what hands to play. Where's the respect coming my way? There is none at all, so why should I show anyone else any respect? Just because they're not at cheesburger levels? Maybe I'll show some respect when people stop showing me arrogance. Until then, it seems I'm destined to argue with people every other post about respect, modesty, arrogance and whatever else people want to throw my way.

@ bold #1: sir just to let you know, we all started at cheeseburger stakes - myself included.

@ bold #2: you can't play them profitably, we're trying to help you realize this and tighten up so you can make more money.

[tugger]

@ bold #2: you can't play them profitably, we're trying to help you realize this and tighten up so you can make more money.

Ok, so we're getting somewhere. I disagree with this statement, because I'm winning money playing this way in late position. I was losing money in early position, which is why I don't play these hands oop. So how am I making money playing these hands? Is it just luck thus far? Perhaps. Is it skill? Perhaps. Is it because microfish can't fold AK when it misses? Bingo. It's basically implied odds, as far as I can see. T6 beats AK one in three times, right? Maybe slightly higher, but one in three will do. So, I need to make enough profit when T6 beats AK to pay for the two times it loses. Not difficult at the micros. If I can get away cheaply when T6 is losing to AK, and make the fish pay enough when AK is losing to T6, T6 becomes +ev against AK. And if we're playing ranges, if my range is 33% to his range, again I need to win a big enough pot when my range is winning to pay for the two times it's losing in order to break even. Again, at the micros, it's not difficult. So to say that money cannot be made in position with a weak range is baloney. It depends entirely on who you are facing, and since the table is made up mostly of people who pay for draws at the wrong price, and don't let go of top pair, overpairs, and AK, I feel that, in position, I can make money playing pretty much any hand. Hell, I even play 23s on the button sometimes if there's no raise, and I have won more money than I have lost with it in the last month. Same with 64s. These are hands that should lose me money, but they don't, because the people I play against are, generally speaking, so freakin' weak.

If I were at a table full of decent players, then I would change my strategy accordingly; I wouldn't dream of attacking someone who can make correct folds, because I'm not getting the implied odds to play a weaker range.

Is this at the very least logical?

[Stacks]

I think I could play my hand blind at the CO and BU at micros, and still make a profit. Making money is +ev, and I'm making money in late position with these hands.

If this is true, then why are you differentiating between T6s and 82o? In your instance, you are saying every hand is profitable from LP. However, you have obviously drawn a line where you believe some hands are profitable to play and some are not. We aren't telling you to only play certain hands. We are informing you that your standards are likely too loose in some instances, and that playing a hand that is -EV, is well -EV, so why do it?

And your head isn't quite as far up your arse as some folk here.

I would hope not. I can't imagine my head being up my ass as much as yours is up yours. Sorry, but my opinion.

But I still think you're wrong to moan at my hand selection. I'm actually not stupid, I know T6 is bad. It doesn't matter. One more time... I DON'T WANT TO PLAY HAND CHART POKER!!!

Noone, and I REPEAT, NOONE, is telling you to play using a hand chart. Why do you assume this? As I stated before, some hands are +EV in a situation, and some hands are not. Not every hands is profitable to play in every position preflop. If that is true, then are you calling 3bets with 72o? If the answer is no, then you have once again drawn a line between what hands are profitable and what hands are not. Why does this line not carry over when you are considering which hands to open (obviously wider standards, but there is still a line)?

But it means I would like to be able to raise from time to time with bad hands in position. Please, for the love of God, tell me why this is so offensive to people? Why can I not ask for advice on a hand if I have picked a poor hand to play? Is this forum exclusively for people who play tight?

It's fine to raise a wider range in late position. This is obvious. But to raise hands that are -EV to play (which is hard to find) is not what we are here to promote. If we think it's -EV, do you expect us to hold our tongues and say it's fine? Then what good would we be doing you? If we think it's -EV, then we are going to say so.

Here we have a case of a collective group of more experienced and knowledgeable players telling you that your preflop decision to raise was -EV, and therefore you should avoid it, and you, the more inexperienced player, are basically telling us, and this is of course paraphrased, to shove it up our asses. Doesn't make much sense does it?

[tugger]

If this is true, then why are you differentiating between T6s and 82o?

Because it's not entirely true. Even I accept 82o is a long term loser. Perhaps the very best players could find a way to make money with it, but I'm not about to try.

I should be more accurate... I think a lot of hands are profitable it late position at the micros.

Noone, and I REPEAT, NOONE, is telling you to play using a hand chart. Why do you assume this?

Because people keep going on about T6 being -ev. If we're only playing hands pre flop that are +ev, then we are playing hand chart poker. You guys seem to be mashing ranges into stove and doing what it says, instead of playing each hand as it comes to you. It's a different style of play, it's a clash, I guess. Perhaps stove mashing is a better way to play, in fact I know it is. But it's not how I want to play poker. It's destroying something I love, it's like shitting on my weed. I don't mind cutting out what loses me money, but I'm not about to stop doing what's winning me money. I doubt you even believe I'm winning money playing this loose in late position, but I am. Blame the fish for not folding when they should.

Why does this line not carry over when you are considering which hands to open (obviously wider standards, but there is still a line)?

Well, like you point out, there is a line. I guess I'm looking for as many ways to hit a flop as possible. 72o is not going to flop me a straight draw, flush draw and middle pair. It might flop me a full house once every eight months, and maybe even quads one day, but it's not a strong multi-way hand. T6s is better, for obvious reasons. So if I'm looking for hands that can hit more flops, I'm looking at 78s, 46s, AK, JTs, T8s KJ etc, but not hands like A6o, K5s, J3o, 78o, 64o, 29 etc

If we think it's -EV, do you expect us to hold our tongues and say it's fine? Then what good would we be doing you? If we think it's -EV, then we are going to say so.

This term ev seems misleading. From where I'm sitting, it seems flawed. It assumes too much. It tells us that, if we stacked off, we'd either win long term or lose long term based on probability. It assumes AK is equally as easy to fold as 23 when it's losing. It assumes all players are equal.

Expected value. Well, I expect to win one in three pots against AK with 23. I expect, at micros, AK to lose more money than 23 does when it loses. In fact, I expect it to lose, on average, more than twice as much as 23 does when it loses. So, based on these assumptions, I expect to make money with 23 against AK.

Now, with less fish, I would not expect AK to lose more than twice as much as 23 does when it loses. I would expect it to lose a little bit more on average than 23, but not anywhere near enough to make up for the -ev pre flop decision to play 23.

ev is not all that pre flop, in my opinion. I have three more rounds of betting to make up the difference. This is where I want to improve, I want to be able to make enough money post flop to justify my pre flop hand selection.

[Stacks]

I should be more accurate... I think a lot of hands are profitable it late position at the micros.

This is fucking obvious, no?

Noone, and I REPEAT, NOONE, is telling you to play using a hand chart. Why do you assume this?

Because people keep going on about T6 being -ev. If we're only playing hands pre flop that are +ev, then we are playing hand chart poker.

I am telling you to access the situation, and from that determine if the hand is +EV or -EV. Not every situation is the same. I am stating that in this situation, with 2 limpers, it's probably -EV to isolate with hands like T6s, 73s, etc. This does not mean that it's -EV to open T6s when folded to on the button with tight blinds. Whereas, it might be -EV to open T6s when folded to on the BU with solid regs in the blinds?

These situations are different, and your failure to see that, shows your lack of knowledge. This is why we aren't saying to play with a damn hand chart. We are telling you to assess the situation.

You guys seem to be mashing ranges into stove and doing what it says, instead of playing each hand as it comes to you. It's a different style of play, it's a clash, I guess. Perhaps stove mashing is a better way to play, in fact I know it is.

Who the hell would do this? I've never used pokerstove while I play, and don't know who would. But to deny it's use in post-play analysis, and disregard such basic poker concepts as equity and ranges, is beyond retarded.

But it's not how I want to play poker. It's destroying something I love, it's like shitting on my weed. I don't mind cutting out what loses me money, but I'm not about to stop doing what's winning me money. I doubt you even believe I'm winning money playing this loose in late position, but I am. Blame the fish for not folding when they should.

Oh my god!!! Are you seriously sitting here boosting about winning money at 2nl? Saying that we cannot believe it? You've done this numerous times already. It's annoying, and entirely laughable. Of course you can play a wide range of hands against droolers. I am simply telling you that there is a line that is drawn between what is a +EV play, and what is a -EV play, and that you seem to be intentionally crossing that line into -EV play.

This term ev seems misleading. From where I'm sitting, it seems flawed. It assumes too much. It tells us that, if we stacked off, we'd either win long term or lose long term based on probability.

Are you serious? Probability tells us just that. If we need to win 20% of the time to make a call breakeven, and we make the call when we are only going to win 10% of the time, then we ARE GOING to lose money in the longrun. Our call would be -EV.

It assumes AK is equally as easy to fold as 23 when it's losing. It assumes all players are equal.

The hand doesn't really matter. It's your equity against villain's range. Once again, if you need 20% to make a call BE, and against villain's range of hands you have only 10% equity with AK, then you should fold. If against that range you only have 10% equity with 32, then you should fold. In both fucking cases, a fold is correct, regardless of which hand you have, and if you are aware of your correct equity against villain's range, then you should fold them both just as quickly.


I'm sorry, I just don't really feel like addressing anything else, whether I agree with it or disagree.

[tugger]

Another way to look at it...

I like averages.

So, with my loose hand selection, shall we assume my average hand strength is 40%, compared to villain's 60%? Now, if the average pot I win is twice the average pot I lose, then does this add up to a profit? I think so.

I'll preempt the response. If I go in with the average hand strength of 60%, I don't need the pots I win to be bigger than the pots I lose, but if I do win bigger pots than I lose, it's a very healthy profit indeed. But it is easier for people to read me, and so the pots I win will, on average, be smaller, and because my hands are, on average, much stronger, it stands to reason that when my hands are beat, it will, on average, cost me more.

Maybe I just find it easier to manipulate pot sizes in my favour when I have the wider range. Maybe it's more profitable at the micros for me to go into the average flop as underdog. Is this really as crazy as it sounds?

[tugger]

I'm sorry, I just don't really feel like addressing anything else, whether I agree with it or disagree.

Cool. Thanks for the constructive input, I do actually appreciate it.

[JustinSKS]

Do as you're told imo

[surviva316]

So, with my loose hand selection, shall we assume my average hand strength is 40%, compared to villain's 60%? Now, if the average pot I win is twice the average pot I lose, then does this add up to a profit? I think so.

well, sure, if you come up with CRAAAAAAAAZY made up premises, then you can make any conclusion logically necessary.

the problem is that your premises are completely off. to believe that pots are twice as big when you win with T6s vs pots that you win with KTs is ridiculous. let's say the flop comes T52r, how the F are you winning more when you have T6s than when you have KTs? how do you win more on a flop with a 6 in it with T6 than you do on a flop with a K in it with a K? how the F do you win more with your very mediocre flush with T6s than your second nuts when KTs hits a flush? ok, so T6s is like .00003% more likely to hit a straight than KTs....it's NOT gonna make up for the difference (in fact i guarantee you that KTs makes more from straights than T6s both because you're more likely to have a better straight when you hit with KTs and also because there are going to be a lot of broadway cards when you hit a straight with that hands so fish'll pay you off).

so, i don't know who all the people were who were going on about preflop equity with KTsvT6s, but that's really not the big difference (and i think that that's what your misconception of EV is, is that it's equity, but it's not). you're right about one thing, equity isn't very useful preflop unless we're talking about like 1/2 our stacks going into the pot preflop. what matters is that there are WAAAAAAAAAAAY more hands that you can play profitably by iso'ing two limpers from the cutoff. who cares if T6s just generally isn't gonna win you enough money to make up for your 6bb raise?

as for all that garbage on hand-reading.......facepalm. if you really think that you're gonna get paid more on a T62r flop with T6 than you will with KT on a KT2r flop against the type of opponents who are bad enough to wanna iso wide in the first place, then you are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overestimating your opponent. you say maybe we just aren't as good as you with manipulating pot sizes, but i'd argue that you're prolly just not doing a good enough job getting 3 streets of value with mediocre hands, and have to rely on miracle flushes and straights to make you feel like a god at poker.

now i know you backed off the KT vs T6 thing long ago in this thread, but you can completely reread the whole thread replacing KT with JTo, A7s, and even T7s and all sorts of other stuff which makes up like 40% of potential starting hands (if you're iso'ing with 40% of your range from the CO, that should be plenty to get your awesome lagg image that makes your glands all tingly) and see how the points still very obviously apply.

[tugger]

you say maybe we just aren't as good as you with manipulating pot sizes

Bollocks did I. I said maybe I'm better at manipulating pot sizes in my favour when my range is wide than when my range is tight. There's a world of difference.

to believe that pots are twice as big when you win with T6s vs pots that you win with KTs is ridiculous.

Again, you're completely misunderstood what I've said. I said that when I beat AK with something shit like 23, the pots I take down are more than twice as big as the pots I fold when I miss the flop with my shit hand. If the pots are indeed more than twice as big, then two low cards against AK is profitable for me.

what matters is that there are WAAAAAAAAAAAY more hands that you can play profitably by iso'ing two limpers from the cutoff.

Yeah, I know. I'm playing them too, or at least most of them.

but i'd argue that you're prolly just not doing a good enough job getting 3 streets of value with mediocre hands, and have to rely on miracle flushes and straights to make you feel like a god at poker.

Haha this actually made me laugh. You're probably right in that I'm not getting enough value, this is where I'm looking to improve. But the rest is just a crap collection of words, a piss poor attempt to insult me. I reckon you're ginger with ginger pubes.

[kiwiMark]

I THINK OP'S PLAYING A GREAT GAME AND I WOULDN'T HAVE PLAYED THOSE HANDS ANY DIFFERENTLY LOOKING GOOD BUD KEEP IT UP SEE YOU AT HIGH STAKES!

^ I can only assume the above is what you wanted to hear when you made this thread. I also think you've probably burned most of the bridges here at FTR so good luck getting future advice. But then again that's probably no loss to you as you refuse to listen to it either. (Yes, yes, I know you're going to reply saying this isn't the case, etc., don't bother, I don't care.)

Anyway, I hope your keeping your pride intact is a worthwhile price to pay for not benefiting from these great forums.

Can this thread just be locked? I don't think anybody has any time for it, and after the above post (plus, to be fair, this one) it's just gonna degenerate into flames anyway.

[Stacks]

Ughh.. I had a semi-solid post lined up, which was going to put OP's attitude down, and then mock his great poker skills, even asking if he would give me some coaching.

However, I do believe the thread has ventured far enough off topic to warrant a lock? And that if this is not the case, then a lock would dispel likely future flamage. I mean the thread was about floating right? So... toodles.

{locked}