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  1. #76
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    Re mid pp's, depends on utg. The tighter the better for set mining, depends on villains post flop play otherwise. Some people will just let you take it if they miss, in which case you intend to take the hand on the flop regardless of whether you hit. Also play around with calling their cbet and raising checked turns as lots of people will cbet regardless of the flop and then shut down.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by seven-deuce View Post
    If ... i'm on the button with 78s i'll be calling all day as a set mine.
    shorely shome mishtake?
    don't want no tutti-frutti, no lollipop
  3. #78
    What's your plan for the hand with suited A's? Flop a FD? Garbage, fold like superman on laundry day.

    77-99: don't 3bet (what hands is UTG folding/calling/4betting a 3bet with?). Flat call, let CO/BTN etc decide if they want to play. HU if there's no A on the flop and only one overcard you will often have the best hand. (It's surprising in general how often a flop misses UTG's range).

    For calling range, See Theory of Poker (if you don't have ToP, pm me). As a rule of thumb, you need a hand at least as good as the opener's range to call with (your calling range from any position vs EP open is their EP range). This is what Sklansky calls the gap concept.

    Deviate from the gap concept when implied odds are high (you take the worst of it preflop hoping to win it all back when you flop well). Setmining is the classic example of implied odds at work.
    Last edited by Luco; 01-21-2013 at 08:43 AM.
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  4. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleJ View Post
    shorely shome mishtake?
    str8mine?
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  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    Re mid pp's, depends on utg. The tighter the better for set mining, depends on villains post flop play otherwise. Some people will just let you take it if they miss, in which case you intend to take the hand on the flop regardless of whether you hit. Also play around with calling their cbet and raising checked turns as lots of people will cbet regardless of the flop and then shut down.
    So you're more inclined to just call rather than 3bet? I never feel comfortable going to a flop multi-way with a medium PP that's why I am asking about a 3bet.
  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by daviddem View Post
    ...with a PP you flop a set or not, which clearly determines whether you continue or not.
    i don't think this is entirely true.

    you can play fit-or-fold w/ yer PPs, but these are often good spots to float a high cBet/low Turn agression villain HU

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    ...Also play around with calling their cbet and raising checked turns as lots of people will cbet regardless of the flop and then shut down.
    yes, what he said.

    This thread's going bonkers. Nice 1 Coby
    Last edited by DoubleJ; 01-21-2013 at 08:46 AM.
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  7. #82
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    I hate 3b mid pps. What are you hoping will happen? If you're just looking for a fold then better to do it with A rag suited. You're not trying to build a pot as you are well behind villains range. Just call and see a flop. But don't just play set or forget, you'd often be better folding pre. Based on villains stats give him a range and if the flop isn't great for him play accordingly.
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  8. #83
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    Also I love seeing a flop multiway with a medium pp. Your set with be the best hand most of the time and you have a greater chance of someone else hitting enough to pay you off. It's also one of the times you can fold if you miss without worrying too much.
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  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    I hate 3b mid pps. What are you hoping will happen? If you're just looking for a fold then better to do it with A rag suited. You're not trying to build a pot as you are well behind villains range. Just call and see a flop. But don't just play set or forget, you'd often be better folding pre. Based on villains stats give him a range and if the flop isn't great for him play accordingly.
    The 3bet is mainly to try and keep Button/blinds from limping in behind with Ax type hands. Obviously it's not ideal building a pot with a medium PP but just wondered whether it was a better alternative than going 3 handed+ to the flop.
  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 View Post
    So you're more inclined to just call rather than 3bet? I never feel comfortable going to a flop multi-way with a medium PP that's why I am asking about a 3bet.
    You're trying to use the buttons in front of you to create a more favourable situation for yourself, which is great. But 3betting into a range that you're already behind is srsly not the best way to turn your 77-99 into dollars.

    It's true that the more players in the pot, the lower your equity. However, you still have the best hand sometimes and utg is also less likely to cbet multiway, making it easier to fold to aggression. If you're really not sure, play set-or-forget if you get overcalled and play the flop if you go HU vs UTG.
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  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 View Post
    The 3bet is mainly to try and keep Button/blinds from limping in behind with Ax type hands. Obviously it's not ideal building a pot with a medium PP but just wondered whether it was a better alternative than going 3 handed+ to the flop.
    They can't overlimp if UTG has raised dude.
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  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucothefish View Post
    They can't overlimp if UTG has raised dude.
    Wrong terminology. I meant to stop button/blinds from calling behind me.
  13. #88
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    AXs/sc type hands have a good chance of paying off your set in a multiway pot. Their 2p or 1p draw hands will often see another street or two unimproved and are often overvalued as they aren't considered obvious to spot.
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  14. #89
    If you 3bet PP's vs an UTG range your essentially turning them into a bluff for no reason whatsoever when they have plenty of value in str8mining.

    As a general rule of thumb you don't want to be bluffing into a strong range.

    Also you want to take a pot multiway with mid to low PP's the more the merrier. There's more chance someone will connect with the flop the more hands are actually seeing the flop, so if you happen to flop a set theres more chance someone has flopped top pair or a decent draw that they will call you with.
    Erín Go Bragh
  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by seven-deuce View Post
    If you 3bet PP's vs an UTG range your essentially turning them into a bluff for no reason whatsoever when they have plenty of value in str8mining.
    You did that one on purpose!
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  16. #91
    OK lads, once again, thank you very much.

    I am sure I will have some more questions soon enough!
  17. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucothefish View Post
    You did that one on purpose!
    Soul read.
    Erín Go Bragh
  18. #93
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    OK, so an Irishman, a Welshman and an ex-Scouser walk into an internet forum....
    don't want no tutti-frutti, no lollipop
  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleJ View Post
    OK, so an Irishman, a Welshman and an ex-Scouser walk into an internet forum....
    OH SHIT! That cut me deep. Scouse all the way!
  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 View Post
    OH SHIT! That cut me deep. Scouse all the way!
    sorry, man - i couldn't resist....
    don't want no tutti-frutti, no lollipop
  21. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 View Post
    I never feel comfortable going to a flop multi-way with a medium PP that's why I am asking about a 3bet.
    You may be underestimating the power of a set. I'm regularly surprised when I go over to PokerStove and check my flopped set against a three to a straight or flush OTF. Yes, there's the occasional overset to deal with, but it's rare enough to make this a very powerful value betting hand. And the ability to pair up for a full house makes this a true powerhouse.
  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 View Post
    Just a general thought about SC's in MP ( 6 Max ) ...are we happy to include hands like 87s/98s/T9s in our MP calling range with an UTG villain of 20/18 or are we best just folding them? Does it help if we think we might get another call from either blinds or button?
    just reading through this thread again, and i dunno if you're not coming at this a bit sideways.

    i think "is XXX in our calling range" is the wrong question...or the wrong way to be thinking, imho

    if you have a raise in front of you, you want to be looking to see if this represents an opportunity to exploit the raiser.

    Good weapons for exploiting tight opening ranges are your implied-odds hands - small PPs, SCs and some suited Aces, ideally in position and multi-way.

    so what you need to be thinking in these spots should be "who's left to act, and what are their tendencies?"

    (Atcherly, u wanna be thinking that in every spot, ldo, but work with me here...)

    If you're OTB and the blinds are fishy, then bingo

    If either of the blinds are squeeze-merchants, then not so much

    If you're MP, the blinds are fishy, and CO and BTN are both tighter than a gnat's chuff, you're still in business as you effectively "buy the Button"

    etcetera, etcetera
    don't want no tutti-frutti, no lollipop
  23. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleJ View Post
    just reading through this thread again, and i dunno if you're not coming at this a bit sideways.

    i think "is XXX in our calling range" is the wrong question...or the wrong way to be thinking, imho

    if you have a raise in front of you, you want to be looking to see if this represents an opportunity to exploit the raiser.

    Good weapons for exploiting tight opening ranges are your implied-odds hands - small PPs, SCs and some suited Aces, ideally in position and multi-way.

    so what you need to be thinking in these spots should be "who's left to act, and what are their tendencies?"

    (Atcherly, u wanna be thinking that in every spot, ldo, but work with me here...)

    If you're OTB and the blinds are fishy, then bingo

    If either of the blinds are squeeze-merchants, then not so much

    If you're MP, the blinds are fishy, and CO and BTN are both tighter than a gnat's chuff, you're still in business as you effectively "buy the Button"

    etcetera, etcetera
    Hmm, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of it that way at all, I was just trying to keep it really basic and assign myself some ranges in each position. Obviously these ranges would change based on table dynamics but you get my point.

    I do think about those things during hands, but just hadn't applied them to what I was doing here.
  24. #99
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    Do you categorize the players at your tables? You can normally do so with reasonable accuracy within 30 hands. Just use very basic categories based on preflop stats, say use nit/tag, loose passive and loose aggressive. If you do nothing more than this and remember to adjust your play based on which of these categories is in the hand or yet to act then you will be moving in the right direction.
    Last edited by rong; 01-21-2013 at 04:50 PM.
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  25. #100
    Yeah I do that. Much easier with PT as well, as you said, you can normally tell within 30 hands or so. I also write a lot of hand specifics down, probably too much information actually, could spend less of my table time doing that.
  26. #101
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    Consider these ranges (something like what I do when FR is playing 6-handed)
    UTG { 88+,AJs+,AQo+ }
    MP { 77+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AQo+ }
    HJ { 66+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo }
    CO { 22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,54s, ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,98o }
    BU { PP's, broadways, all Ax, suited Kx, SC's, S1G's, S2G's, J7s }
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 View Post
    Is this your open raising range? If so, how do you adjust it to a calling range/3betting range or can you only do that once you know the table dynamics?
    Yes, those are guidelines for opening ranges. Bear in mind that while the button range is so wide (lol wide to me), I open 1bb smaller from BU.

    As pertains to calling/3-betting: I have vacuum ranges, but, as it's been pointed out, it's all about villain reads and I use stack sizes as an immediate tell.

    Implied odds hands are easy folds vs. villains with small stacks that can't possibly pay off and are likely to station w/ any pair. Those same hands can be easy over-calls if 1 or more deep stack has already called before me.

    It happens sometimes that my calling range is actually wider than my opening range in FR MP1 or MP2. This is when I've got a good seat with a couple of fish on my right.

    My 3-betting is in a dynamic state right now. Thanks to a convo with spoony, I can't even say that I always 3-bet AA,KK anymore. He's convinced me (and it's paid off well in a small sample) that against certain villains it's better to flat with AA,KK and 3-bet w/ A9s-A6s. I guess I still 3-bet AKs, regardless of villains.
  27. #102
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    I don't really get the concept of hero having opening ranges. My range at all times is as wide as I can get away with.
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  28. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    I don't really get the concept of hero having opening ranges. My range at all times is as wide as I can get away with.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Yes, those are guidelines for opening ranges.
    Having static ranges is clearly a mistake. Notice the underline.
  29. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra_1878 View Post
    Yeah I know, I don't have a lot of discipline when it comes to folding. I get bored easy and then start playing speculative hands that get me into trouble. I am working on it but it's not easy haha
    While different people find different things easier or more difficult than they are for others, telling yourself that something is hard *for you* doesn't seem likely to help you improve in that regard. And if it is, then you have the option of challenging yourself.
  30. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Arjonius View Post
    While different people find different things easier or more difficult than they are for others, telling yourself that something is hard *for you* doesn't seem likely to help you improve in that regard. And if it is, then you have the option of challenging yourself.
    I disagree if you say ok this aspect of poker is hard/difficult for me then you have identified a weakness in your game and can focus your energy on improving it.
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  31. #106
    Sorry to hijack thread. MadMojoMonkey i've also been playing around with the idea of flatting AA/KK i was just wondering if i had the right idea regarding when this is a good play. Mostly i've been trying this out against tight players who fold to 3bets way too much to keep in their Ax and Kx part of their range, but have also found that a lot of players are happy to stack off with 99-QQ type hands if the board runs out low cards.
    Another spot i've been thinking of is flatting on the button against aggressive blind 3bettors who tend to fold to 4bets, but i'm less sure about this particular situation Would be interested to hear your thoughts.
  32. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by jippo88 View Post
    Mostly i've been trying this out against tight players who fold to 3bets way too much to keep in their Ax and Kx part of their range,
    Sounds good to me. The idea is to exploit people with a huge gap between their opening range and their continuing to a 3-bet range.

    Quote Originally Posted by jippo88 View Post
    but have also found that a lot of players are happy to stack off with 99-QQ type hands if the board runs out low cards.
    You can certainly cooler smaller PP's when you do this, but that's not the reason. It's about the gap between their raising and continuing ranges. When they continue after your 3-bet w/ Axs, you pretty much know that their hand is nutted, and that they're likely to station down. So play accordingly. Monies you don't lose = monies you win.

    Quote Originally Posted by jippo88 View Post
    Another spot i've been thinking of is flatting on the button against aggressive blind 3bettors who tend to fold to 4bets, but i'm less sure about this particular situation Would be interested to hear your thoughts.
    This is a little different, as now you are the initial raiser, and you are facing a 3-bet, so it's their 3-bet and continue to 4-bet %-ages but the same gap theory applies. If the gap is huge...
    This is perfect time to flat with KK+. You get more value post-flop than pre, and you now use mid suited A's to fill the open gap in your 4-bet range from taking the KK+ out. You get lots of value pre and post from this adjustment against this player.

    NOTE: You pretty much are never stacking off pre with the villain you make this adjustment against. They have KK+ in their range, and you don't... they're gonna have to be a whale for you to continue with QQ-,Axs.
  33. #108
    SPR is usually an important factor when deciding whether to flat KK+. It needs to be low.
  34. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fielmann View Post
    SPR is usually an important factor when deciding whether to flat KK+. It needs to be low.
    wat. I could easily come up with a valid argument for flatting KK+ w/ 250bb+ stacks and I'm sure many other people could too.
  35. #110

    Default how long have you been playing

    I want to ask you how long have you been playing and in which site. And with how money you start playing
  36. #111
    How about reading the thread and the site question is answered.
  37. #112
    rong's Avatar
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    Keith, you need some form of anger management therapy.
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  38. #113
    Nah , im fine. Just look at the evidence. look at the rakeback thread where he put a nonsense reply in despite rpm and threebet having said in the thread that rakeback is not available on stars as its returned to the player via the vip scheme.Here he's asking which site and bankroll cobra plays. The site was answered in the hands cobra posted, and the bankroll question is irrelevent. In the OP cobra clearly said that he moved up when he was rolled to and moved back down after losses and ground it back up again.If he'd read the thread(s) he wouldn't have posted what he did.
  39. #114
    Keith was a lot more polite than most. Personally I prefer a little black humor with these 5-a-monthers
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  40. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by seven-deuce View Post
    I disagree if you say ok this aspect of poker is hard/difficult for me then you have identified a weakness in your game and can focus your energy on improving it.
    We're not in disagreement. What's important is to improve the areas of your game that need it whether they happen to be hard or not for the person in question. I'm not suggesting not to work on tough areas but rather saying that because they're hard isn't a good reason to avoid working on them or to work on them less.
  41. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Arjonius View Post
    We're not in disagreement. What's important is to improve the areas of your game that need it whether they happen to be hard or not for the person in question. I'm not suggesting not to work on tough areas but rather saying that because they're hard isn't a good reason to avoid working on them or to work on them less.
    If that was your point, I didn't say I wasn't working on it because it was difficult so I'm not sure why you felt the need to post what you did?
  42. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Consider these ranges (something like what I do when FR is playing 6-handed)
    UTG { 88+,AJs+,AQo+ }
    MP { 77+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AQo+ }
    HJ { 66+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo }
    CO { 22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,54s, ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,98o }
    BU { PP's, broadways, all Ax, suited Kx, SC's, S1G's, S2G's, J7s }

    You already know how to play the blinds.
    Just remembered this post just now while playing a 6-handed table. It looks like you have posted ranges for a 7-handed table. No big deal. It's just that when I read it for the first time I had a vague feel that something wasn't quite right and I have just realised what it was.
  43. #118
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    OOPS.

    Yeah, I see now that you are completely correct. Just scrap the UTG range, and play the MP range from UTG.

    UTG { 77+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AQo+ }
    HJ { 66+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,AJo+,KQo }
    CO { 22+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,54s, ATo+,KTo+,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,98o }
    BU { PP's, broadways, all Ax, suited Kx, SC's, S1G's, S2G's, J7s }

    Always consider any CO hand when on SB. CONSIDER it, don't just open the whole range. There's plenty of times you can play SC's and S1G's, even S2G's, by limping pre-flop when you're getting 7:1 or more for your odds. Just be wary of a BB who likes to raise limped pots.

    Also, always be aware of how deep stacks are on the limpers you intend to raise. The ESS (really the SPR) OTF will radically change how you play your hands, so plan ahead before you open the hand.

    As always, these are not hard-and-fast rules, just guidelines for opening ranges.

    Also, I'm a FR player, and other people might have better vacuum ranges for 6-max.

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