5nlz - AA OOP QJJJ5

MP is 22/14 after 49 hands& is 4 tabling
SB is unknown

Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($10.71) 214bb
UTG+1 ($5.21) 104bb
CO ($3.92) 78bb
BTN ($24.62) 492bb
SB ($8.35) 167bb
BB ($7.32) 146bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 6 players) Hero is UTG A A
Hero raises to $0.15, 1 fold, CO calls $0.15, 1 fold, SB calls $0.13, 1 fold

Flop: Q J J ($0.50, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $0.10, SB calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

Turn: J ($0.80, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $0.35, SB folds, Hero calls $0.35

River: 5 ($1.50, 2 players)

What do we think of the line taken so far?

River plans?
Do we want to bet if so why?
What are we doing vs different sizings otr if we check? Especially small sizings.

I don't like betting rivers, the only thing we are trying to do is get value out of Qx hands, maybe some mid pps. If I have Qx (as the villain) heros large river bet is a weird line that I would typically fold to as it seems to be something that usually shows up as a nut or near nut hand. So hero is basically only getting action from a J.

If we bet small we are more likely to see some calls from Qx, but we are also going to be raised by Jx always, and the rest of villains range sometimes. I don't think hero wants to call that raise ever unless you have a really specific read. Qx may also just fold anyway. I mean why have you awaken now at the river? what hands call this flop and turn that don't beat Qx. Villains should expect to split (at best) or lose if calling that river bet.

Checking the river therefore seems like the only logical action for me, and my plan would be to c/c though I would probably tank/fold to larger bets or shoves most of the time. Reasoning being that your line here is pretty spewy, especially turn, if you don't get to showdown. If villain bets river small, you're going to be +ev if you win just ~20% of the time. c/r river is always spew.

I don't like your line. Why have you not cbet the flop? It's like you're trying to get to a cheap showdown already w/ the c/c.

Bet flop, bet turn, bet river. Getting plenty of calls from Qx, I'm never folding here either btw, if we get jammed on, I'm snapping it off.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I don't like your line.

I might add that I agree somewhat with this.. c/c both flop and turn struck me as a wildly strange approach to this hand, but that wasn't your question.

Your line has the advantage of basically never being AA, our opponents will be suitably deceived. But that really doesn't help with maximizing the EV of our hand. You basically stuck yourself in a position where you have to think hard about putting chips in on the river and gave a lot of value along the way.

Hands like AK, 9Ts and Qx, sometimes mid pps, all have the potential to give you some value on this flop. Jx can't be a huge part of CO's calling range. AJ and sometime KJ, TJ are the only decent options for him to take to the flop. You have blockers to AJ, and the flop is blockers to all of these hands, making everything else far more likely - which should control our flop decision.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

I don't like your line. Why have you not cbet the flop? It's like you're trying to get to a cheap showdown already w/ the c/c.

Bet flop, bet turn, bet river. Getting plenty of calls from Qx, I'm never folding here either btw, if we get jammed on, I'm snapping it off.

I didn't c-bet because it's a really shitty flop to c-bet imo. Villains flatting ranges just hit this board so much better than mine. I want to be c-betting my Jx, draws and utter crap imo. I think hands from weak 2pair (i.e 22) or better I should just be checking and trying to get cheap showdown.

It also really isn't a board where weaker hands in villains range are going to try and get out of line over multiple streets with bluffs.

Villains possible Qx and Jx

AQ (6) KQ (12)
18

AJ (4) KJ (8) QJ (6) TJ (8) JJ (1)
27

Also most likely to 3bet AQ & KQ & JJ if he is going to 3bet any of those hands pre which some % of the time will happen.


The turn considerable changes his range.

AQ, KQ is still 18 combos

AJ (2) KJ (4) QJ (3) TJ (4) JJ (0) = 13 combos

So I am much less worried about him value betting Jx and any pairs he did have might be over excited about having a full house now.

Originally Posted by ImSavy

I didn't c-bet because it's a really shitty flop to c-bet imo. Villains flatting ranges just hit this board so much better than mine. I want to be c-betting my Jx, draws and utter crap imo. I think hands from weak 2pair (i.e 22) or better I should just be checking and trying to get cheap showdown.

It also really isn't a board where weaker hands in villains range are going to try and get out of line over multiple streets with bluffs.

Villains possible Qx and Jx

AQ (6) KQ (12)
18

AJ (4) KJ (8) QJ (6) TJ (8) JJ (1)
27

Also most likely to 3bet AQ & KQ & JJ if he is going to 3bet any of those hands pre which some % of the time will happen.

KT and T9s make the flop a pretty clear value bet and that's even before we start going a bit wider for AT and other gutshots. I would also massively discount any villain at 5nl 3betting AQ/KQ/JJ pre, especially versus an EP open.

Not sure why you would ever be cbetting this flop multiway with "utter crap" too when you say this smashes the two villains' flatting range?

Originally Posted by ImSavy

I didn't c-bet because it's a really shitty flop to c-bet imo. Villains flatting ranges just hit this board so much better than mine. I want to be c-betting my Jx, draws and utter crap imo. I think hands from weak 2pair (i.e 22) or better I should just be checking and trying to get cheap showdown.

It also really isn't a board where weaker hands in villains range are going to try and get out of line over multiple streets with bluffs.

Villains possible Qx and Jx

AQ (6) KQ (12)
18

AJ (4) KJ (8) QJ (6) TJ (8) JJ (1)
27

Also most likely to 3bet AQ & KQ & JJ if he is going to 3bet any of those hands pre which some % of the time will happen.


The turn considerable changes his range.

AQ, KQ is still 18 combos

AJ (2) KJ (4) QJ (3) TJ (4) JJ (0) = 13 combos

So I am much less worried about him value betting Jx and any pairs he did have might be over excited about having a full house now.

You're going to get called on flop by plenty of Qx hands, KT, T9 and AT some of the time too. It's an easy value bet imo, can't be too worried about villain showing up w/ Jx some of the time. Also, if they do have Jx they will sure as hell let you know about it and you can get away from your hand, c/c doesn't give you much information about villain's range.

I agree that you should be trying to get to a cheap showdown w/ weaker 2P hands, but AA does not fall into that range at all.

I also don't think AQ and KQ are 3betting hands for regs at 5NL, especially against EP opens. They fall within villain's ranges in this hand, imo.

open larger pre i go 4bb utg(+1), 3bb up to CO 2.5bb on btn and stealing with crap late so risking less and can fold if 3bet.
. ranges are tighter earlier so i'm raising for value and you will get called and helps deter it from going multiway which can help make the pot look attractive to the clowns.
i cbet flop 2/3 pot and same again on turn and shove river . no one is folding Qx at the these stakes and you'll get called by smaller pocket pairs as well. Also how on earth do you get utter junk to the flop UTG. if you have you've spewed preflop and spewing even more by cbetting it.

I don't mind the line. I'm probably c/bombing most sizings on the river, and expecting Qx to call.

I'd just shove the river, Qx is never folding while other hands that we beat are checking behind, and not calling any reasonable bet. He's very unlikely to have Jx, and if he does, nh etc.

Originally Posted by ajspiano

I don't like betting rivers, the only thing we are trying to do is get value out of Qx hands, maybe some mid pps. If I have Qx (as the villain) heros large river bet is a weird line that I would typically fold to as it seems to be something that usually shows up as a nut or near nut hand. So hero is basically only getting action from a J.

If we bet small we are more likely to see some calls from Qx, but we are also going to be raised by Jx always, and the rest of villains range sometimes. I don't think hero wants to call that raise ever unless you have a really specific read. Qx may also just fold anyway. I mean why have you awaken now at the river? what hands call this flop and turn that don't beat Qx. Villains should expect to split (at best) or lose if calling that river bet.

Checking the river therefore seems like the only logical action for me, and my plan would be to c/c though I would probably tank/fold to larger bets or shoves most of the time. Reasoning being that your line here is pretty spewy, especially turn, if you don't get to showdown. If villain bets river small, you're going to be +ev if you win just ~20% of the time. c/r river is always spew.

I disagree with the majority of this. First of all, at 5nl, noone is folding Qx at river, so the idea that a river bet only gets action from Jx is heavily flawed.

And if we're checking river, then it's to c/r vs his range of Qx Jx. Obviously Qx is way more likely, and I'll say it again, it is not folding because it's the nuts at these stakes in the eyes of most players. Villain will assume we have Qx too and snap call for the chop, because lol it's micro stakes.

Folding river to a large bet is awful.

Villain has very little in his range that beats us, while he has plenty we beat. We should be looking to get all the money in by river.

Originally Posted by The Bean Counter

KT and T9s make the flop a pretty clear value bet and that's even before we start going a bit wider for AT and other gutshots. I would also massively discount any villain at 5nl 3betting AQ/KQ/JJ pre, especially versus an EP open.

This is flawed too, imo. For a start, KT is a great hand for villain to hold, because he's four outering. If he calls KT on this flop, and then hits broadway, we fill up and clean him out, because if he's drawing on this board, then he's probably not good enough to avoid paying off a boat.

And people are 3betting AQ KQ JJ at 5nl, even vs ep opens, because most people are bad players who are not positionally aware, thus they are not considering hero opening in such position to be opening a tighter range. They see AQ and think "yeah I have a great hand" and pay no attention to who is raising from where.

That said, I do feel like there's plenty of value at flop, so I'd probably cbet. I don't hate hero's line though, but after this turn I'm drooling and want stacks in.

For the record when I say rubbish hands it's all relative to my UTG range on this board. I don't mean I have stuff like 49o in my range.

ftr savy, I only defend my blind with A7o vs utg against you because I'm dying for action with you.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

ftr savy, I only defend my blind with A7o vs utg against you because I'm dying for action with you.

And KJo and then call two streets when you hit a J ridiculous really.

if he bets again small then check-raise 4x-ish, fold to a shove

Originally Posted by ImSavy

And KJo and then call two streets when you hit a J ridiculous really.

^sounds solid imo

also, i prefer cbetting flop say 30c

Flop check is reasonable to mix it up but I'd bet 90% of the time.

Turn check is mega gross, like winrate-plummeting gross.

It looks like you're playing AA from behind here, like you're afraid to get stacked. You should be stacking Qx every time and getting stacked by Jx almost every time here. Qx hands outnumber Jx hands by three to one, so expect to come out way ahead in the long run.

Your line prevents you from always stacking Qx, but you'll still get stacked by Jx pretty often, which is pretty nasty obviously.

Im betting the flop , betting the turn , and trying to get it in vs qx on the river ! This is fucking 5nl stop overcomplicating it and get value !

Originally Posted by Renton

Flop check is reasonable to mix it up but I'd bet 90% of the time.

Turn check is mega gross, like winrate-plummeting gross.

It looks like you're playing AA from behind here, like you're afraid to get stacked. You should be stacking Qx every time and getting stacked by Jx almost every time here. Qx hands outnumber Jx hands by three to one, so expect to come out way ahead in the long run.

Your line prevents you from always stacking Qx, but you'll still get stacked by Jx pretty often, which is pretty nasty obviously.

also gonna be stacking retardedly played KK and some smaller pocket pairs where they just couldn't fold a full house .