IP cbetting range development

you need some hands to cbet and check back turn so you can call river

and def dont check back 6x

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

you need some hands to cbet and check back turn so you can call river

and def dont check back 6x

Yeah, replacing the small PP with 6x for blockers and 2pair/trips outs.

For hands that cbet then check turn to call river, how many would you have - do QJs+QTs sound reasonable here, should there be more/less, should they be stronger/weaker?

What comes to mind here from villains perspective (assuming a runout that doesn't change things too much from the flop), is that if I bet the flop and villain flats, then I check back the turn, he can:

1. Have checked the turn with something strong, expecting me to bet again, then when I don't he leads the river for thick value

2. Have checked the turn with a hand like JJ, now after I show weakness checking the turn back, he leads the river for thin value against TT/99/78/89.

3. He can have checked the turn to c/r something like a turned FD or T9/JT/79 then I check the turn back and he decides to lead the river as a bluff.

He's got quite a wide range in other words, he can be pretty strong, can be airballing completely, or he can also be somewhere in between. So I'm a bit stuck as to what hands to check the turn with planning to call a river lead - there's a cap to how strong they can be otherwise I give up value with stuff I'd rather bet the turn with, but betting stuff like QJ/QT on the flop is going to somewhat weaken my checking range, so if I can bet flops with say TT/JJ planning to check turn and call river, perhaps that is better???

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

1. Have checked the turn with something strong, expecting me to bet again, then when I don't he leads the river for thick value

2. Have checked the turn with a hand like JJ, now after I show weakness checking the turn back, he leads the river for thin value against TT/99/78/89.

3. He can have checked the turn to c/r something like a turned FD or T9/JT/79 then I check the turn back and he decides to lead the river as a bluff.

Still interested to hear your thoughts on this M2M, but I've been looking at it using a BB calling range, and I think on safe runouts:

1. Is an extremely small part of his range

2. Is also quite a small part of his range, but not as a small as (1)

3. Is probably the main bit of his range I want these hands against.

So, I could really use something pretty weak with some sdv like 8x, but I think my previous suggestion of QTs/QJs type hands is probably good - they are hands I'm happy to get 2 streets of value with, so I can just as well do that by bet/check/call as I can by bet/bet/check - it seems to make sense to use the strongest bluffcatchers I can to call rivers.