need so clarification.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

That UTG range looks ridiculously spewey to me. You're opening 44-77 and AJo and weak SC's and ... and ...
Hey, if this is 4-handed, it makes sense. You said Villain is MP, though. So this is what? 6-max?

Can we get a 6-max player to talk about UTG ranges?

Yeah, it's pretty loose. 6max v FR through, all you need to really think about is what you'd play from UTG+3 if the first 3 players all folded, since you're then playing 6max.

As a default barring any particular factors favouring a looser open like a big fish in the blinds, I'd open like 99+, ATs+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, AJo+, KQo and I consider that quite loose. A typical tightish UTG range at 6max might be like TT+, AJs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AQo+, KQo.

Aside from the range to open though, I'm more interested in commenting on "is it really profitable for UTG to call a 3b OOP" to say that it's probably _never_ profitable to call a 3bet OOP. Maybe if you're very very good at playing postflop, but really I think if you're 3bet OOP you should either 4bet planning to stack off if necessary, or fold.

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

Yeah, it's pretty loose. 6max v FR through, all you need to really think about is what you'd play from UTG+3 if the first 3 players all folded, since you're then playing 6max.

I did that with the range I suggested, but I feel you're over-simplifying the difference between FR and 6-max.

The added pressure of the blinds coming around more frequently means that ranges have to open up a bit more than a simple "FR conversion" of "pretend UTG, UTG+1, and MP1 have folded".

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I did that with the range I suggested, but I feel you're over-simplifying the difference between FR and 6-max.

The added pressure of the blinds coming around more frequently means that ranges have to open up a bit more than a simple "FR conversion" of "pretend UTG, UTG+1, and MP1 have folded".

Point taken. I'd never actually thought about that before - I haven't played FR in a long time, but yeah, I guess the added blind pressure does contribute to the looseness of a 6max game, so your MP2 range should still be somewhat tighter than my UTG and the ranges we each posted seem consistent with that.

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

I think if you're 3bet OOP you should either 4bet planning to stack off if necessary, or fold.

ok so where does the line get drawn of whether it is even profitable to open certain hands because if you get 3bet you have to fold? or then do you think that if you cant 4bet the hand then you shouldn't even be opening with it? what percentage of hands can we actually fold before we start losing money just by opening the action? I don't know if im wording my question right.
an example answer is " we can open x% of hands UTG and fold X% of that range and still be profitable

Originally Posted by acg123

ok so where does the line get drawn of whether it is even profitable to open certain hands because if you get 3bet you have to fold? or then do you think that if you cant 4bet the hand then you shouldn't even be opening with it? what percentage of hands can we actually fold before we start losing money just by opening the action? I don't know if im wording my question right.
an example answer is " we can open x% of hands UTG and fold X% of that range and still be profitable

Well that depends how much you're getting 3bet. If people even notice that you're playing a 4bet or fold strategy (which is doubtful), then they start 3betting you with a wider range, then your 4bet value range can widen, and you can get it in with more hands, so it shouldn't greatly affect your UTG opening range - if someone is 3betting you like a monkey, you can probably be willing to stack off with at least the top half of it, if not more. (Provided that your UTG range is strong enough, and doesn't consist of like 15% of hands).

The main point though is that any concern that someone is going to exploit a 4bet-or-fold tendency pales into total insignificance compared with the money you'll bleed playing 3bet pots OOP.

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

Well that depends how much you're getting 3bet. If people even notice that you're playing a 4bet or fold strategy (which is doubtful), then they start 3betting you with a wider range, then your 4bet value range can widen, and you can get it in with more hands, so it shouldn't greatly affect your UTG opening range - if someone is 3betting you like a monkey, you can probably be willing to stack off with at least the top half of it, if not more. (Provided that your UTG range is strong enough, and doesn't consist of like 15% of hands).

The main point though is that any concern that someone is going to exploit a 4bet-or-fold tendency pales into total insignificance compared with the money you'll bleed playing 3bet pots OOP.

excellent point I didn't think of. makes a lot of sense being OOP sucks. lol

Originally Posted by acg123

ok so where does the line get drawn of whether it is even profitable to open certain hands because if you get 3bet you have to fold? or then do you think that if you cant 4bet the hand then you shouldn't even be opening with it? what percentage of hands can we actually fold before we start losing money just by opening the action? I don't know if im wording my question right.
an example answer is " we can open x% of hands UTG and fold X% of that range and still be profitable

This all depends on a large number of factors, mainly the specific villain's range and bet size. The single most important skill for you to have at a poker game is the ability to put villains on ranges. This should be your primary focus. The way you play your own cards is a function of villains' ranges and pot odds.

We're not being rude or difficult when we fail to answer your questions here. The problem is that you're looking to generalize aspects of the game that simply can not be generalized. Without knowledge of odds and ranges, we cannot tell you how to play any hand "properly". We can only tell you that you're probably too loose or too tight or too passive or too aggressive. We simply can not give you more specific advice without more specific information.

I mean if you said:

Villain 3-bets A% of hands, will continue with B% of hands, and will fold (A-B)/A = C% of hands. Hero is facing a call of D into a pot of E.

At what % of folds, F, does Hero become exploitable against these pot odds? What is the range of value hands, G, that Hero should continue with? With what range of hands, H, should Hero be happy to fold such that H/(H + G) = F?

You see how much the ranges and odds matter there? This doesn't even consider a 4-bet, or post flop play.

Please read this:
spoonitnow's Mathematics of EV Thread

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

This all depends on a large number of factors, mainly the specific villain's range and bet size. The single most important skill for you to have at a poker game is the ability to put villains on ranges. This should be your primary focus. The way you play your own cards is a function of villains' ranges and pot odds.

We're not being rude or difficult when we fail to answer your questions here. The problem is that you're looking to generalize aspects of the game that simply can not be generalized. Without knowledge of odds and ranges, we cannot tell you how to play any hand "properly". We can only tell you that you're probably too loose or too tight or too passive or too aggressive. We simply can not give you more specific advice without more specific information.

I mean if you said:

Villain 3-bets A% of hands, will continue with B% of hands, and will fold (A-B)/A = C% of hands. Hero is facing a call of D into a pot of E.

At what % of folds, F, does Hero become exploitable against these pot odds? What is the range of value hands, G, that Hero should continue with? With what range of hands, H, should Hero be happy to fold such that H/(H + G) = F?

You see how much the ranges and odds matter there? This doesn't even consider a 4-bet, or post flop play.

Please read this:
spoonitnow's Mathematics of EV Thread

I do, thank you and I think I understand where I went wrong. let me try again

ok so villain 3 bets 99+,AQs+ 3.3%
our UTG opening range is 44+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,AJo+,K Qo
now say in this situation we DO NOT have a 4bet hand.( 4bet range is QQ+,AQs+,AKo
so our range is actually
JJ-44,AJs-ATs,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,AQo-AJo,KQo
what portion of our range should we be folding, and what portion should we be calling?
I think this example will net a much better result. hopefully..