So much puke on this damn keyboard

2 hands, almost back to back:

Hand 1:

Everyone looks fishly, villain is 31/19 over 16 hands. Have seen him open limp, so just as likely he likes to slowplay.

Feel like I should have folded flop.

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Converted at http://www.handhistoryconverter.com

Button ($23.36)
SB ($89.61)
Hero (BB) ($60.84)
UTG ($30.29)
MP ($9.70)
CO ($29.95)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, K
1 fold, MP bets $0.75, CO calls $0.75, 1 fold, SB calls $0.65, Hero raises to $3, 2 folds, SB calls $2.25

Flop: ($7.50) K, 3, 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4.50, SB raises to $9, Hero calls $4.50

Turn: ($25.50) Q (2 players)
SB bets $12.25, Hero pukes


Hand 2:

Villain is 19/15, has called 100% of 3bets (3 times) but I think the sample could be small enough that is an abberation, and if he's so tight he will often have it.

Given the flush draw, I wonder if I made a mistake folding here, OTOH he might be afraid of the draw and protecting a set or AA?

Unless we have a specific read that he plays his draws aggresively, are we just folding flop here again?

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Converted at http://handhistoryconverter.com

Button ($16.44)
SB ($45.85)
Hero (BB) ($49.09)
UTG ($45.04)
MP ($31.18)
CO ($24.88)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, K
4 folds, SB bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.25, SB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.50) 2, Q, 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.75, SB raises to $6.25, Hero calls $3.50

Turn: ($17) 6 (2 players)
SB bets $8, Hero pukes

I think you have to give Villain's a wide range for spew on blind v blind situations.

H1) What range are you putting Villain on OTF that a Q is so menacing? I understand that KQ is in Villain's range, but so is JJ-88 at minimal. Maybe those don't donk OTT, but maybe they do. Maybe random Qx (including AQ) floated OTF.
I think station down here. There aren't too many 3's in Villain's range and TPTK will catch all of Villain's bluffs (which I find many Villains do way too much in blind battles).

H2) How many 6's are in SB's range? Why are you so worried about a 6? I think Villain bets AQ here every time, and JJ,TT,99 sometimes.
I'd station this one, too.


Given that there is a FD to semi-bluff on both hands OTT, there's even more reason to continue.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

H1) What range are you putting Villain on OTF that a Q is so menacing? I understand that KQ is in Villain's range, but so is JJ-88 at minimal. Maybe those don't donk OTT, but maybe they do. Maybe random Qx (including AQ) floated OTF.
I think station down here. There aren't too many 3's in Villain's range and TPTK will catch all of Villain's bluffs (which I find many Villains do way too much in blind battles).

Confused if you've misread the hand here, since you say he may have floated - he raises the flop. I know he reps really narrow, like AA, KK, QQ that raises to find out if it's beat (and KQ can do the same). After I call the flop raise, what's continuing on the turn that I beat?

When fish flat preflop then call a big 3bet like this, I so often see AA/KK/QQ and none of them are good news for me. He then goes on to either rep AA/KK on the flop, or possibly even a wierdly played QQ which raises the flop to see if I've really got it, which is something I see a lot from fish do.

Who knows, maybe I should have called it off, but I think there are a lot of reasons not to.

H2) How many 6's are in SB's range? Why are you so worried about a 6? I think Villain bets AQ here every time, and JJ,TT,99 sometimes.
I'd station this one, too.

I'm wasn't worried about a 6, as you said not many 6s in his range and the turn makes that even less likely. If I didn't make a mistake folding, I think I was already beat on the flop.

Worried more about QQ that flats preflop to let me bluff away or 22 that called the 3bet to setmine, he's 19/15 - even blind v blind, does a nit with AQ raise the flop, get called then lead the turn?

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

Confused if you've misread the hand here, since you say he may have floated - he raises the flop.

Oops, my mistake. I threw that in as an afterthought, but it was not well thought out, after all.

My biggest mistakes are when I don't b/f. So maybe continuing here isn't as good as I like to think it is. I don't think a fold is terrible here, w/o history blind v blind.

Villain's generally wide stats make me want to peel the flop raise. I think you can discount AA here, since Villain flatted twice PRE.

Then I get myself into this spot where I peeled the flop and I'm not folding when a blank falls OTT. Plus, the 1/2 pot bet looks a bit fishy.

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

does a nit with AQ raise the flop, get called then lead the turn?

I've frequently been called a nit, and I find a c/r with a lot of hands is pretty solid blind v blind OTF. I'm usually firing another shot OTT when I c/r OTF. I don't think a c/r is too bad for Villain w/ AQ on a wet board. I think Villain can expect you to C-bet super-wide when checked to. Villain might also think and will call a raise with JJ- and plenty of draws, making a c/r for value a solid play here.

If that's what he thinks, then a 1/2 pot bet to get value from JJ and charge the draws isn't bad. If he's on a draw and semi-bluffing, it makes sense, too.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I've frequently been called a nit, and I find a c/r with a lot of hands is pretty solid blind v blind OTF. I'm usually firing another shot OTT when I c/r OTF. I don't think a c/r is too bad for Villain w/ AQ on a wet board. I think Villain can expect you to C-bet super-wide when checked to. Villain might also think and will call a raise with JJ- and plenty of draws, making a c/r for value a solid play here.

If that's what he thinks, then a 1/2 pot bet to get value from JJ and charge the draws isn't bad. If he's on a draw and semi-bluffing, it makes sense, too.

Yeah, I prefer stacking off in hand 2 to doing it in hand 1. In both cases, I hate that I don't know what to do, but if I had to guess I'd say I made a mistake calling the flop in hand 1, and a mistake folding the turn in hand 2.

personally im happily calling both spots but thats me

Reraise and get it in otf with both hands. That's what you want to do with the big pair hands, play them really fast. You'll get coolered sometimes but it is very +ev.

Not even sad about calling.

Calling both.

Originally Posted by abelardx

Reraise and get it in otf with both hands. That's what you want to do with the big pair hands, play them really fast. You'll get coolered sometimes but it is very +ev.

This is so wrong lol.

I'm happy calling both. Hand 2 I'm pretty confident I'm ahead. Hand 1 I think is close and I can probably find a fold on certain rivers.

Stop puking when you have the nuts in 3-bet pots.

If you're this worried in these spots, I'd recommend not playing deep when you get deep with others.

Hand 1) Kind of lame, and he def has some KQ in his range, but I'm not folding yet. Maybe re-eval river, but even still probably not folding.

Hand 2) I don't see why we'd puke at all here. I'm loving this action.

Slow playing big pairs, or two pair or sets, is a major leak. If you're not deep, like you are here but if you were only 1 buyin deep, it is standard and very +ev to go with a big pair on the flop. That is the point of 3betting. You 3bet to 10 blinds so that when called you hit the flop with a stack to pot ratio of 5:1, perfect for stacking off with a tptk type hand. That's the main purpose of three betting. You reduce the hand to one street poker where big pairs are crushing it, just like in late tournament play.

Here though you're deep which makes things a little more tricky. You have some options. You could overbet preflop to get the stack to pot ratio you want on the flop. That'll take it down a lot preflop, which isn't a bad thing with AK necessarily. Or you can not 3bet and play for pot control from the very beginning.

But understand that the point of 3betting is to reduce stacks and reduce the number of streets to favor good small hands. That's the main point. What you do after that is up to you. Just don't confuse the issue by 3betting and trying to pot control simultaneously. Those two things don't go together.

What you do not want to do is build a big pot with a good small hand like tptk, then slow up, let villain see all the cards, and then try to soul read him on the river to see if you're still good or not. That puts you in the bad spot, which is what you want to do to him.

This is all part of the more general idea that deeper stacks are better for drawing and bluffing, because of the greater implied odds and reverse implied odds, while shorter stacks favor made hands.

Another point is that fast playing doesn't mean you're never folding. It just means that you are getting all-in or folding as early as possible. For example, in hand 1, if a tag raises you on a two-tone flop and you have AK tptk, you're happy to go with it, reraise and put him all in otf because there are draws that will come along as big dogs, not to mention worse made hands that put you on a draw. But if you're playing a fish or a nit, and you raised him on the flop and he 3bet you, you could comfortably fold it. That kind of thing.

Thanks everyone, I won't respond individually because I think the general advice is all consistent with what I've been told in other threads in the last day or two - monsters under the bed. I guess I've just got to get over it.

Originally Posted by griffey24

If you're this worried in these spots, I'd recommend not playing deep when you get deep with others.

Hand 1) Kind of lame, and he def has some KQ in his range, but I'm not folding yet. Maybe re-eval river, but even still probably not folding.

Hand 2) I don't see why we'd puke at all here. I'm loving this action.

This ^

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

Thanks everyone, I won't respond individually because I think the general advice is all consistent with what I've been told in other threads in the last day or two - monsters under the bed. I guess I've just got to get over it.

But it looks like you're getting it now.

So stop puking and be happy.