5.50: 88, middle stage, many players

i think i've played this totally wrong. but limping 88 with 12bb left seemed too weak and a push too aggressive.

is folding an option after his push? no reads on villain.

No Limit Holdem Tournament
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG gonnellia (663)
UTG+1 BlyhaMyha (1540)
MP1 razerbill (1204)
MP2 instarais0r (2803)
MP3 Hero (1245)
CO Airkson (3630)
BTN Drakenmoor (1080)
SB tometmiss (1125)
BB TSkeie2 (1710)

Blinds: 50/100

Pre-flop: (0, 9 players) Hero is MP3
4 folds, Hero bets 300, 1 fold, Drakenmoor raises to 1080, 2 folds, Hero ?

This is a tough spot. I like your raise being first to enter the pot. When he shoves obviously your 2 options are to call or fold. If we fold that leaves us with just about 10 blinds and with a full table thats definitly doable. If we call and double up, we sit good and if we lose we are crippled.
With out a read I think I fold. The biggest influance is that we are 9 handed and the blinds will be coming around slower. If we were 4-5 handed or if the blinds increase soon then I think I call and hope for a coin flip.

As played, you have to call. You have a good hand versus his range and the pot is giving you ~2 to 1 odds.

Question for you: what do you think the BTN is pushing with? Tell me your range for him.

Doesn't HOH vol 2 talk about how these small pairs play horribly at the middle M's. That book has been like the bible to me, so I would probably just fold pre-flop here.

I think we need to know more about our own table image in order to answer this question. What kind of hands have we shown down up until this point? How many hands have we raised?

Where does 88 fall in the range your opponents might put you on?

Originally Posted by courtiebee

Question for you: what do you think the BTN is pushing with? Tell me your range for him.

the fact that still all players are on the table speaks for tight players and i haven't seen any moves like this before. so i think he really has a hand: 77+, AJ, AQ, AK and maybe KQ:

equity
Hand 0: 54.667%
7806066.00 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }

Hand 1: 45.333%
7806066.00 { 88 }

i think calling and hoping for a race is fine then.

@ghaleon:
i'm not sure, if something like a table image really exist at these low stakes. most players just seem to play their cards and don't care about their opponents. but if i have a table image then it must be the one of a tight player

i honestly think 5.50 buyin players have improved on table image skill and calling ranges.you will see a couple of regs there all the time,and some of us here playing at that buyin as well.
but probably,this is because sometimes i play on european time(8am et-10am et),they are sick tight.so it lasts very long

with 12-14xbb,is either push/fold,i wont be raising from that position either.with medium pp,we have odds to call here,citing his range 1010+ and above.im so lazy with the math here.

I agree with hangchiong, with this stack size I am shoving or folding preflop and this one is a shove for me.

As played, I agree with courtie, you have to call getting those pot odds - this is a very tight range and is still +EV even considering the ICM tax:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 64.359% 64.15% 00.21% 448181796 1443048.00 { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 35.641% 35.43% 00.21% 247552140 1443048.00 { 88 }

I agree with shoving instead of raising and calling as played but what is ICM tax?

ez shove preflop.

i probably shove any pp here.. depending on how active i've been. but 88 regardless of my image is a shove.

Originally Posted by mukaka

I agree with shoving instead of raising and calling as played but what is ICM tax?

It's a lazy way of trying to take the ICM effect into account - here's an example:

If we only pay attention to chip pot odds, then we need to call 780 chips to win a pot of 1530 chips so we are getting 1.96 to 1 on the call or alternatively need to be 33.8% to win to make it a +chip EV call.

However, because of the ICM effect:
- If we fold we will have 945 chips worth 6.8% of the prize pool
- If we call and win we will have 2475 chips worth 16.4% of the prize pool
- If we call and lose we will have 165 chips worth 1.3% of the prize pool.

Therefore, we need to be (6.8-1.3)/(16.4-1.3) = 36.4% to win to make this a +$EV call. The difference between the chip EV and the $EV pot odds is 36.4-33.8 = 2.6% (the "ICM tax").

Therefore, if we believe that opp's range is 99+, AQ+ then calling the shove with 88 is very slightly -EV.

great post man.. thank you..

This is close. I think that you need 99+ and AQ+ to shove in this spot. Once you raise with a 12bb stack you can't fold, that's bad. Folding and shoving pre are your options with this hand in this spot.

I think if you plan on calling then shoving in the first place is the answer. But I don't see anything wrong with folding as played.
Do we think he villan is shoving with a hand that we are ahead of? Not often...I like a fold

we still have pleanty of chips to play with

Originally Posted by brian1175

Do we think he villan is shoving with a hand that we are ahead of? Not often...I like a fold

we still have pleanty of chips to play with

Ummm, it's not about specific hands that opp may or may not have, and there will be some hands that dominate us, however there are PLENTY of hands against which we're taking the right end of a flip in his range which make this a call IMO. Take a look at my Pokerstove calculations above - even against 99+, AQ+ we are priced in to call once we have standard raised. Plus, there is always the possibility that opp is shoving over with a lower pocket pair.

If you think this is a fold, suggest a range that would make it so considering the dead chips in the pot.

I understand where you are coming from, however I just disagree. There are different theories on how you could play this hand and Im sure everyone is right. I however don't like a call based on the reasons I gave.
Of course you have to take the math into consideration but you also have to take into consideration stack sizes and how many people at the table too. If Im heads up I call all day. But in this paticular situation I fold.

Originally Posted by brian1175

I understand where you are coming from, however I just disagree. There are different theories on how you could play this hand and Im sure everyone is right. I however don't like a call based on the reasons I gave.
Of course you have to take the math into consideration but you also have to take into consideration stack sizes and how many people at the table too. If Im heads up I call all day. But in this paticular situation I fold.

wrong. shove preflop all day long, and as played we're still calling. if you're willing to fold a hand like this here people are going to run all over you shoving ATC against you. folding preflop is better than what you suggested.

Originally Posted by brian1175

I understand where you are coming from, however I just disagree. There are different theories on how you could play this hand and Im sure everyone is right. I however don't like a call based on the reasons I gave.
Of course you have to take the math into consideration but you also have to take into consideration stack sizes and how many people at the table too. If Im heads up I call all day. But in this paticular situation I fold.

Like I said, if you advocate folding, then propose a range of hands that opp would shove over with that justifies a fold - remembering that there are 16 ways to be dealt unpaired overcard hands and 6 ways to be dealt a pocket pair.

Originally Posted by brian1175

I understand where you are coming from, however I just disagree. There are different theories on how you could play this hand and Im sure everyone is right. I however don't like a call based on the reasons I gave.

Funny how I haven't read a thread in this forum in almost a year and nothing has changed

Originally Posted by brian1175

If Im heads up I call all day. But in this paticular situation I fold.

Pretty sure this is backwards

maybe I have been playing these wrong all along.....

Originally Posted by brian1175

maybe I have been playing these wrong all along.....

The way I see it, with so many people left you NEED chips just to stay alive. Take your coin-flip to double up and that gives you a chance to compete.

If it was HU and you had an advantage over the other player I could see wanting to play longer and use your skill instead of just flipping for 1st.