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A5 suited - in layter stages of game - facing villan

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  1. #1

    Default A5 suited - in layter stages of game - facing villan

    Would appreciate any thoughts regarding my actions in this hand.

    This was a $11 buy-in 1R/ 1A 25K Grtee Poker Maximus game.
    Apx 200 people left - 120 itm

    Merge - $0+$0|<> NL - Holdem - 9 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    CO: 33,606 (VPIP: 5.13, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 39)
    BTN: 7,390 (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 11.90, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 45)
    SB: 22,380 (VPIP: 21.62, PFR: 22.86, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 38)
    Hero (BB): 22,634
    UTG: 36,850 (VPIP: 25.73, PFR: 17.68, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 171)
    UTG+1: 58,366 (VPIP: 10.59, PFR: 5.06, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 86)
    UTG+2: 7,890 (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 8)
    MP: 16,427 (VPIP: 10.53, PFR: 8.11, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 38)
    MP+1: 13,326 (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 10)

    9 players post ante of 100, SB posts SB 500, Hero posts BB 1,000

    Pre Flop: (pot: 2,400) Hero has 5 A

    fold, UTG+1 raises to 2,000, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 1,000

    Flop: (5,400, 2 players) 3 A 4
    Hero bets 2,000, UTG+1 raises to 4,000, Hero calls 2,000

    Turn: (13,400, 2 players) 9
    Hero checks, UTG+1 bets 6,700, fold

    UTG+1 wins 13,400

    Have discussed this hand with a friend - and was an interesting conversation. I be happy to explain my logic - but more then anything I would love to know what would you have chosen to do and why?
    - what you do preflop?
    then assuming did what I did
    - what to do post flop?
    Last edited by vegasjj; 05-06-2013 at 04:27 AM.
  2. #2
    to be honest it's a tough one the problem i see has firstly happened to all of us no-doubt, calling out of position with a weak Ace trying to suck out with a flush draw in the big blind! utg+ 1 prob has a strong ace or better but what do you have 2 outers for the best hand (if hes suited) i think the best thing to do is fold the flop and the second best option is to fold the flop and the third best option is to jam the flop lol (third option was a joke)
    Last edited by steelsatin; 05-06-2013 at 06:13 AM.
  3. #3
    Sykedupp's Avatar
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    vs a villian that tight I might have folded pre, but I cant fault you for flatting the min here, the odds are nice. Postflop I would either bet/fold, or (most likely) c/c flop c/f turn vs somebody this tight.
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  4. #4
    I'm cool with flatting pre, but definitely don't bet/call flop. check call as it's a tough board for villain to double barrel with anything worse (you're behind v their flop, turn bet range)
    Last edited by Pascal; 05-06-2013 at 07:24 PM.
  5. #5
    rpm's Avatar
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    i'd fold pre. even with antes it seems a losing proposition to flat here hoping to flop A) top pair we'll get very little value from most of the time and expose ourselves to reverse-implied-odds, or B) a flush (very rare)/flush draw.

    flop lead i think is fine (and i like your sizing) but i'd definitely fold to villain's raise unless i'm sure he/she hates money.

    ps this post was made with very, very little understanding of ICM or what it does, and a limited understanding of poker strategy in general. so take it with a grain of salt. just pitching in two cents.
  6. #6
    UTG+1: 58,366 (VPIP: 10.59, PFR: 5.06)

    Fold pre.

    I don't mind you leading, but you definitely have to fold to a reraise. If you aren't folding to a reraise you need to have a strategy as to what you are going to do on next streets and try to exploit villains tendencies and take into account your image.

    This villain looks really right, so assuming we know that he can fold TPTK, a shove wouldn't be an awful bluff. As I'd be fairly confident that villain doesn't have a flush. Isn't really in his range, worse case scenario he has KsQs or AxKs. Although obviously if you'd never take this line with a flush draw then it doesn't really work.

    If you don't think you're getting any fold equity from the villain then we should definitely be able to find a fold on every street.
  7. #7
    rpm's Avatar
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    once again i'm not a tourney player but i feel shoving is a really bad idea, whether on the flop or the turn. very little worse will call on either street, and i dont expect villain to have much of a folding range either once his range has been narrowed by raising in EP then raising a lead on this flop with these stacks after running a 10% VPIP over your sample.

    here's another grain of salt to swallow this advice with
    Last edited by rpm; 05-06-2013 at 01:12 PM.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by rpm View Post
    once again i'm not a tourney player but i feel shoving as a bluff is a really bad idea, whether on the flop or the turn. very little worse will call, and i dont expect villain to have much of a folding range either.

    here's another grain of salt to swallow this advice with
    I'm imagining villain will fold out most of his range when we do this, because his range isn't incredibly strong on that turn. Like I said, requires the read that he can fold out things like TPTK and I suspect that he has some KK, QQ in his range. Whereas he has almost no realistic flush draws in his range bar KsQs .

    If we put him on an opening range of

    88+, AQo+, AJs+, KQ.

    Then we narrow him down to say JJ+, KsQs, AJ+ when he raises our donk bet. There is a huge amount of that which is very scared of the flush draw, so if we know we can get him to fold TPTK (which is pretty much all of his range) then we are in decent shape.
    Last edited by Savy; 05-06-2013 at 01:19 PM.
  9. #9
    rpm's Avatar
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    why would villain raise JJ,QQ,or KK on this flop? surely even most fish realise this accomplishes nothing at all.

    re "villain's range not being incredibly strong", i think it actually is pretty strong. he is a nit who opened UTG+1 at a FR table and has taken the strongest line at his disposal up until this point (ignoring any sizing, ie he's raised/bet at every opportunity he's had. plus he had a strong range before we'd even called his PF MR)

    re "he doesn't have many flush draws", that's true. but we probably don't either?

    re "getting him to fold TPTK", im not sure how to expect people in these games to play. but i'd be pretty surprised to learn that anybody as tight as this guy will fold any ace they open from EP and then pair the flop with given our/their stack sizes. especially if they have a Js+ with it
  10. #10
    I've seen people do some pretty silly stuff.

    I was just giving an example as to one thing we could possibly do as a plan of action and I said it depends on villain and our image and obviously we wouldn't be doing it all the time.

    Villains range definitely isn't that strong though, there aren't really any sets in his range, there aren't really any two pair in his range, there aren't really any flushes in his range.

    If hero is calling A5s from the bb against an early position min raise I don't think I'm going to be too wrong in thinking he'd have called with lots of sc, and other crap he should have folded, so we do have flushes, sets, two pair in our range.

    I'm obviously much more of an advocate of folding pre still though.
  11. #11
    i'd just c/c flop and never put more money in unless you make a wheel/two pr or maybe you could bluff 4 spade boards.

    I think pre is fine, people this tight are just usually terrible post. against anyone you respect folding is good.

    that said, if it is not clear to you why 1) calling the flop c/r is bad or 2 ) that you should auto muck your hand to the turn bet, fold pre.
  12. #12
    Calling pf seems fine. Leading flop is not good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

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  13. #13
    Thank you all VERY MUCH for answering to this post.
    It certainly gave me all kind of points that can be considered.

    Just to explain my thought for the bet post flop:
    - If I check - I expect he will bet .. I will fold .. so NO chance at all for me.
    - If I bet - (I have an inside str8 draw, he may fold with the A on flop, I can test him) I have a fair chance to the pot, risking 2K for the chance.
    - Calling his raise post flop - at that time - I felt I am too far invested and was on a prayer.. lol (definitely bad idea I think now)

    As you can tell from my "logic" I am not a real "well educated" poker player, but I am working on it.

    Any comments on the above are much appreciated.
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by vegasjj View Post
    - If I check - I expect he will bet .. I will fold
    Why will you fold?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    Why will you fold?
    joke - cause I'll be pissing my pants scared of him

    because - he is a tight player - and I will assume that he very likely has A+ (T,J Q ) and he got the chips to crush me
  16. #16
    If that's the case, why did you call pf?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    If that's the case, why did you call pf?
    I was basically in HU situation - with a hand that had potential.
    In my opinion it was worth 1K - to get to see the flop. 1K was not a huge chunk of my stack, obviously I had the BB in already.
    (There was no possible higher cost to see the flop)
    Also with the stage the MTT was at, a good number of players had same or smaller stacks then me, but I was in the foreseeable "bubble zone". It seemed like an opportunity at a fair price - to attempt to get ahead, an opportunity I did not want to pass-up on.

    By the way - as I said earlier I am not an "expert" player - and I am very grateful for you asking the questions, trying to lead me in the right direction.
    Last edited by vegasjj; 05-06-2013 at 11:23 PM.
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by vegasjj View Post
    joke - cause I'll be pissing my pants scared of him

    because - he is a tight player - and I will assume that he very likely has A+ (T,J Q ) and he got the chips to crush me
    im not an expert my self but all things considered you had the odds to see the flop! but only to get lucky with a flush draw or hit two pair. (but you didn't) and as you are not itm why continue with the hand , i do it myself its a mistake we have in-common ,just fold bro.hit not want not
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by vegasjj View Post
    I was basically in HU situation - with a hand that had potential.
    What did you want to hit with your hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by vegasjj View Post
    By the way - as I said earlier I am not an "expert" player - and I am very grateful for you asking the questions, trying to lead me in the right direction.
    I'm glad to hear it
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  20. #20
    Yea kinda iffy hand. I don't hate calling pre but you have to know you're always behind when you hit your ace. The guy raising is UTG+1 and super tight as is so his early position range is really really tight. I think calling pre is okay because we can expect to stack him a lot when we hit trip 5s or a 234 straight or a flush. I agree with a few people here best option postflop was to check/call flop and check/fold turn if he barrels.
  21. #21
    dombo's Avatar
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    I think vs a 5% preflop range A5s doesn´t do very well OOP. You aren´t that deep as well. On the other hand you do get very good odds. So depending if you can play a bit postflop wich isn´t the case yet, I would prefer a fold in your case preflop.

    As played postflop vs a 5% preflop raising range, on that A34 flop, I would rather check call flop. As I don´t see him double barrel turn with his pocket pairs where you are a huge favourite against. Also vs all his Ax combo´s that have you beat, you could improve. I probably would fold vs a double barrel on the turn. Also think there are almost no FD combo´s possible for him , because of the A of spades on the board. Maybe rarely KQs.

    Don´t know what I would do if he cbets flop, checks turn behind and bets river, but I probably would call.
    Last edited by dombo; 05-10-2013 at 07:45 AM.

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