Any way I avoid this?

PokerStars Game #2035307888: Tournament #9702960, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2005/07/05 - 00:31:33 (ET)
Table '9702960 1' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: caseykimiko (3015 in chips)
Seat 2: Top Dog 2004 (1075 in chips)
Seat 3: JACEY5 (1280 in chips)
Seat 4: H DoGG (1350 in chips)
Seat 5: wildkaz (1400 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: nealarm (1650 in chips)
Seat 8: Jesse777 (1815 in chips)
Seat 9: AshmanP (1915 in chips)
Jesse777: posts small blind 25
AshmanP: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nealarm [9d 7d]
caseykimiko: folds
Top Dog 2004: calls 50
JACEY5: folds
H DoGG: folds
wildkaz: folds
nealarm: calls 50
Jesse777: calls 25
AshmanP: checks
*** FLOP *** [Th 8c 3c]
Jesse777: checks
AshmanP: checks
Top Dog 2004: bets 50
nealarm: calls 50
Jesse777: calls 50
AshmanP: calls 50
*** TURN *** [Th 8c 3c] [6h]
Jesse777: checks
AshmanP: checks
Top Dog 2004: bets 50
nealarm: calls 50
Jesse777: folds
AshmanP: folds
*** RIVER *** [Th 8c 3c 6h] [Qs]
Top Dog 2004: bets 150
nealarm: raises 1350 to 1500 and is all-in
Top Dog 2004: calls 775 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
nealarm: shows [9d 7d] (a straight, Six to Ten)
Top Dog 2004: shows [9h Jd] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
Top Dog 2004 collected 2350 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2350 | Rake 0
Board [Th 8c 3c 6h Qs]
Seat 1: caseykimiko folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Top Dog 2004 showed [9h Jd] and won (2350) with a straight, Eight to Queen
Seat 3: JACEY5 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: H DoGG folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: wildkaz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: nealarm (button) showed [9d 7d] and lost with a straight, Six to Ten
Seat 8: Jesse777 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 9: AshmanP (big blind) folded on the Turn


My thinking was that he showed some aggression and I wanted to keep him betting in front of me, while i was in position with the nuts = My reason for not raising turn. Horrible river card but I don't see any way avoiding that.

1) Fold preflop
2) If its a horrible river card, why in God's name are you pushing over top? If you think you're beat, which apparently you do, why are you putting more chips on the line? Just call the bet and show down the hand. You either have the best hand or the worst hand. The worst thing you could have done is to push the river. The only hand that calls you is a hand that beats you.

raise the turn some. unlucky river, unlucky opponent holding.

Originally Posted by vqchuang

1) Fold preflop
2) If its a horrible river card, why in God's name are you pushing over top? If you think you're beat, which apparently you do, why are you putting more chips on the line? Just call the bet and show down the hand. You either have the best hand or the worst hand. The worst thing you could have done is to push the river. The only hand that calls you is a hand that beats you.

Im saying bad river because thats the worst card that could've come...I didn't think i was beat. The only hand that calls you is a hand that beats you= untrue. There was a possible set out there, which may have been his min bet "value betting". I put him on 2 pair..no why J9...why in Gods name is he min betting with a draw...he isn't pushing anyone out, he is only building up a pot while he is behind and not favored= confused me. No way I can put him on J9

why is the Q the worst card that could have come? becuase it creates a straight higher than yours? If so your already cognisant of the fact that is possible.

There are always possible sets out there. They might call your all in. But many people with sets would bet a bit higher on the flop in order to chase out the flush draws.

As for why people min bet with a draw, they min bet so peoplle like you dont bet something that they arent willing to call. He was essentially pricing his draw. The way for you to prevent that is to raise the turn.

I think you pay off that particular ahnd everytime, but why you would push on the river I really dont undersatnd. I think that reraising the river is a better play than just pushing over. I think that against the hands you have beat you will make more money that way.

I just found a better way to describe the river play.

For the hands that you are way ahead of, pushing wont make you any more money. For the hands that you are way behind of, pushing will just lose you more money.

Originally Posted by vqchuang

I just found a better way to describe the river play.

For the hands that you are way ahead of, pushing wont make you any more money. For the hands that you are way behind of, pushing will just lose you more money.

Hmm..that makes a lot of sense. Ill keep this in mind. TY

I way to avoid that is just fold pre-flop and not even play. Only play good cards and you will win in the long run.......

Not true. Rippy would have a field day with that statement. For begginers, they are reccomended this basic strategy, yet you will become so easy to read and therefore easy to beat. Thats why Suitor connectors and a suited gappor will become your best friiend every now and then.

Originally Posted by Batlecry

I way to avoid that is just fold pre-flop and not even play. Only play good cards and you will win in the long run.......

False. You will win much more $$ with suited connectors. You will win big pots with suited connectors to people who can't fold AA or KK

This may be true, but I hardly think you need to be worried about people reading you and paying close, if any, attention to the hands you are playing in a $5 online sng. It is not rare for me to sit out 20 straight hands in these before I play and people still give me plenty of action when I raise pre-flop.

Cash game, hand like that is worthwhile. In a SNG, in an early level AND with not many people in the pot then fold preflop. With four in you were okay, but you also should be VERY wary of drawing to a straight which isn't the nut straight. A J9 made a better OESD on the flop, remember. And then, you were drawing to a straight with one possible flush on the flop, two on the turn. Neither panned out but you should watch that too. Luckily you drew cheaply so the pot-odds weren't muddied too much by it.

Summary...I'd fold it pre-flop as I only play big cards and pairs til the 3rd level at least.

Originally Posted by Armstrong

Im saying bad river because thats the worst card that could've come...I didn't think i was beat. The only hand that calls you is a hand that beats you= untrue. There was a possible set out there, which may have been his min bet "value betting". I put him on 2 pair..no why J9...why in Gods name is he min betting with a draw...he isn't pushing anyone out, he is only building up a pot while he is behind and not favored= confused me. No way I can put him on J9

if this is $5 dollar SNG, you are giving this guy way too much credit. quite often the players at this level are not making the right move.....therefore you have to play good cards.

in this case i would say raise the turn. at this level, i think he is more like likely to bet more with a set than to make a value bet.

Raise the turn BIG.

If he has a set, he'll pay you off, your straight is too well disguised.

But there's a club flush draw there, and the betting is consistent with at least one person chasing it. Including the 50 bet, which could well be a semi-bluff (and in fact is, though with an OESD rather than a flush draw). Just calling gives everybody a chance to stay in and beat you. Someone with a set is almost getting the odds to draw to their boat. You must make a pot-sized raise, or you're asking for trouble.

The thing about SNGs that dont make them equivalent to the MTTs is that the stacks are not as deep, and if they are the time you have to play within each level is shorter.

I think that the SNG structure inherently favors really tight play in the early levels and then opening up when the blinds get to around 50/100 to start loosening up and stealing.

Im not sure if theres enough time or chips for really speculative hands like Suited connectors and one gappers. Limping one gappers and connectors hoping for a strong draw is a leak of chips in a SNG.

If you dont want to read my post, reading stewartkev's will accomplish the same thing =D.

raise the turn, for reasons said above. Someone almost has to be drawing to beat you, if they are slow playing a set/two pair, they re raise and you're happy.

since reading HOH2 I've been letting Ms dicate my limping/calling small raises with the low stuff - early or late I will limp if the Ms are there, both min and opp(s). It has been effective. Also I have a line in my mind at 1K chips (starting chips = 1500) - once we get to 50/100 it's mostly AI or fold time whether you have 1500 or 1000, so I'm OK with gambling those first 500. Even if you lose them all someone is going to need a hand to call your 9x BB stack.

People get hung up on should they play this pre-flop or not. That is not an important factor here, that is simply a matter of style. As Mike Caro says "One pro can play twice as many hands as another and they have the same win rate." This is because many decision are marginal one way or another as is this one. (But vqchuang's point about having enough time or chips in a SnG for these hands is a valid one. I will only play hands like this when I have built up chips early or I am playing a large starting chip, low blind rising game.)

The important thing about this hand is, as said by richie, RAISE A WHOLE LOT ON THE TURN. Yes there is a higher straight draw out there, but what I am really worried about the flush. You gave huge odds to draw to a flush through the whole hand.