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Call, Raise, or Fold?

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  1. #1

    Default Call, Raise, or Fold?

    Lock Poker - $2 Bounty - 20/100/200 Blinds - 8 Players

    First hand on whole new table, so I don't have reads on CO villain. UTG villain is passive, tends to limp/fold to raises or to c/f OTF. No SB this hand FYI.

    UTG - 7,660
    UTG+1 - 5,565
    MP1 - 4,018
    MP2 - 13,282
    HJ - 3,470
    CO - 10,864
    BTN - 2,065
    BB (Hero) - 4,242


    Pot is 360

    Dealt to agnesamurphy T,9

    UTG calls 200, 4 folds, CO calls 200, BTN folds, Hero checks

    Pot is 760

    *** FLOP *** 7, A, T

    Hero checks, UTG checks, CO bets 760, Hero???


    I'm not worried about UTG, but I don't love my 2nd pair to this pot-sized bet, and it's unlikely I'll love it OTT. Considering the pre-flop action, CO villain doesn't necessarily have Ax here, and could easily be betting because he's in position and has a big stack and could afford it if someone called and had to fold OTT. Also, I would totally make this bet if I were the one in position and were bluffing, so that factored into my thinking here.

    However, there isn't a lot I want to see OTT. I also have never played with this villain before, so I'm not sure if he would limp IP w/ an ace. I'm having trouble deciphering how much of his range I'm beating here. Should I call, raise, or fold?
  2. #2
    Is there a "bet pot" button on this site?

    I would prob bet the flop OOP. As played I would call.
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  3. #3
    There is a "bet pot" button.
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by agnesamurphy View Post
    There is a "bet pot" button.
    Makes calling better than if there weren't such a button.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  5. #5
    I snap fold. There is no way I call this with no reads. Maybe if it was a 1/3 pot sized bet I might call but even probably not. Its a 4-way pot seems unlikely he would bet pot on a bluff.
  6. #6
    dombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    Makes calling better than if there weren't such a button.
    I never tought about it that way, thanks !

    Still I don´t like calling here.
  7. #7
    dombo's Avatar
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    Maybe I am terribly wrong , but if I never have seen him doing this with complete airballs, I think you aren't doing very well vs his range OOP.
    All Ax hands have you crushed, I think the most Tx hands in his range as well and he could also have broadway cards with a gutshot, with equity he could easily realize by checking turn behind and he could also bluff you of the hand on turn I guess.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by dombo View Post
    I never tought about it that way, thanks !

    Still I don´t like calling here.
    CO is bigstack (54bb) and it's checked to him. This isn't always an ace, it's just as likely he's trying to take down a pot that nobody wants.

    I'd bet that a chunk of his stack was gained from moving in spots just like this one.
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  9. #9
    dombo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luco View Post
    CO is bigstack (54bb) and it's checked to him. This isn't always an ace, it's just as likely he's trying to take down a pot that nobody wants.

    I'd bet that a chunk of his stack was gained from moving in spots just like this one.
    Yes of course if I have seen him take pots down this way on the flop before, I could assume his range has airballs in it.
    But what without no info at all?
    Last edited by dombo; 05-10-2013 at 01:54 PM.
  10. #10
    check/fold ,check/fold, check fold.
  11. #11
    Yea nothing really you can do but check fold.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by rickyt88 View Post
    Yea nothing really you can do but check fold.
    You know you already wrote this in the thread, right? This post is just devoid of any content whatsoever. Especially since it's incorrect.

    You guys that all want to snap fold are huge nits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    You know you already wrote this in the thread, right? This post is just devoid of any content whatsoever. Especially since it's incorrect.

    You guys that all want to snap fold are huge nits.
    Too much HU is turning you into a station methinks :P lol

    I would have (like bee said) also led out on this flop, because once you check you've resigned yourself into either calling almost 20% of your stack with a marginal hand and basically playing it face-up postflop... or folding. Both suck, but I think c/f is better then c/c.

    I'd bet flop though.
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  14. #14
    dombo's Avatar
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    Yes that is what I was thinking as well. I'd prefer a lead as well.
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sykedupp View Post
    Too much HU is turning you into a station methinks :P lol
    nothing wrong w being a station when it's correct

    i'm not saying it's a fist pump snap call. it's definitely NOT a snap fold, though. sure fold is okay, but call is better.

    obv if hero had just bet oop in the first place, this problem spot wouldn't have happened at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  16. #16
    I ended up tank folding. There's just not whole lot OTT that would make me love my hand, and I figured the turn decision would be just as tough, if not harder, than the flop decision.
  17. #17
    Sykedupp's Avatar
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    IMO, I would avoid using the logic of "I didnt want to make a difficult decision later" when trying to improve at poker because you learn the most things in the grey areas. If we always fold here and come to the easy decision, we might be missing out on some profitable spots postflop (myself included). This is, I think, the biggest reason why HU players and (especially) Cash players get better at overall "poker" concepts quicker then MTT players. Bee is probably the best overall non-cash player who still posts here because she's so much better in the grey areas then all of us, and spends way more time OOP in ridiculous spots during her HUSNGs daily then we do in weeks of MTT poker. If she likes to flat here, its probably the best move, assuming you have her skill and ranging ability postflop, because MTT players are very exploitable (even the good regs) and a good player can pick up on those exploits and take advantage of them.


    I'm not suggesting you go out there and put yourself in impossible decisions or anything, but what I would do is always practice ranging villians throughout the hand, and think about making the best most optimal play vs those ranges rather then just avoiding difficult decisions because they're difficult. Just my 2c

    Chris
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  18. #18
    Fold
    most likely it is street-dro, for example 89 and he's in position and has a big stack
    only fold
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    You know you already wrote this in the thread, right? This post is just devoid of any content whatsoever. Especially since it's incorrect.

    You guys that all want to snap fold are huge nits.
    I guess didn't realize I posted twice and didn't realize this hand needed much of an explanation. Maybe since its a $2 tournament and if these guys limp a wide range then I don't mind leading out but not sure what better hands you fold or worse hands you get to call. Maybe you protect against KJ, KQ that would call. But when a passive fish bets pot on this board I think it's a safe fold as played.
  20. #20
    I'd call and feel fine about giving up on bad turns. Often you'll get to see a free river. In general OP seems to discount the value of middle pair + back door. This hand plays better OTT/OTR vs JJ or A6 or T2
  21. #21
    Fold and expect other pretty spots. He could have set´s, two pair or Ax also and some draws, you lost to a lot of hands so fold
  22. #22
    I'm not a tourney player, so take my advice with a grain of sale if you wish.

    But this is purely hand reading. CO limps (despite his big stack) after an EP limper, I'm severely discounting any Ax in this spot.

    Hero checks, and EP checks and CO bets pot? Why would he bet pot if he had a strong hand, and both players in front of him show weakness? Something like 7x, 89, QJ makes a lot more sense here than Ax.

    If hero doesn't want to bet out that's fine, but we can't check, induce a bet/bluff from the last player to act, and then fold. I'm betting my entire range in CO's spot.. why wouldn't I? Clearly everyone here wants to fold Hero's entire range.
    Last edited by griffey24; 05-30-2013 at 07:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  23. #23
    check fold it s the right way..Chances are big for a limp in position with weak Ace. You don t have position to call so much.
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by CrAzY View Post
    check fold it s the right way..Chances are big for a limp in position with weak Ace. You don t have position to call so much.
    Did you read description of UTG? You think one of the chip leads at the table is going to limp behind a passive fish who just c/f post-flop with something as strong as Ax?

    Chip lead at the table also makes it more likely he's potting to put pressure on everyone on the flop..... and it's working lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    Did you read description of UTG? You think one of the chip leads at the table is going to limp behind a passive fish who just c/f post-flop with something as strong as Ax?

    Chip lead at the table also makes it more likely he's potting to put pressure on everyone on the flop..... and it's working lol
    In the description is his opinion about that player. Why are u sure that his opinion it s 100% right? i don t think it s a pro to be so sure about him ...what ever best way to play that hand it s to FOLD !
  26. #26
    This thread tilts my life. Maybe this is why I don't venture into the tourney poker forum haha.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    This thread tilts my life. Maybe this is why I should be in vegas crushing the wsop haha.
    FYP
    Last edited by drmcboy; 06-03-2013 at 12:12 PM. Reason: haha indeed
  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    This thread tilts my life. Maybe this is why I don't venture into the tourney poker forum haha.
    I am prob gonna lock the thread if someone else that doesn't know what they're talking about makes a serious post. I have been tilted by this thread for weeks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  29. #29
    Well I was gonna say I shove this pre, assuming we're not close to bubble, and expect folds >90% of the time, but now I'm afraid courtie will lock the thread and I'll be scared to post in this forum again...

    As played, b/f > c/c > c/f > c/r imo

    *disclaimer - I don't know what I'm talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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