Correct push?

Its 1 hour into a live tournament. i have a medium stack. Villain has me covered. Blinds up reducing my M to 11 next hand.
My read of villain is "min raising fish" (perhaps not too helpful)
Blinds 50/100
10 handed
Hero is SB villain is in third position.
Dealt to Hero Kc3c
UTG calls 100, UTG+1 folds, villain calls 100, 2 folds CO calls, button calls, hero calls, BB checks.
Pot is 600.
Flop comes 5c Jd 6c.
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, villain raises 100, CO folds, button folds, hero calls 100, BB folds UTG folds.
Turn comes Kh.

Hero pushes. (All in for just under 2000 more)

Correct play?

Why not just check and see what happens (with the intention of calling with odds) and see what opp does? You are risking 2000 chips to win 800 in the pot right now, if he's been slowplaying a set or two pair then you're toast.

With an M of 11 (I'm guessing this means about 16.5x BB) you are not desperate and don't need to go broke with TPNK with the 2nd nut flush draw.

Agreed. This was far too loose. I put him on Jx or Arag (maybe a 5 or a 6).

This biffa would have pushed a set. (i saw him do it twice!!) He generally bet out if he hit a flop and folded (even if checked to him) if not.

I guess i should have checked.

Knowing what he had, he would have lead out a larger amount. say 300 if i had checked to him on the turn.

In that case whats your play? Am i calling looking for the flush? Are my kings good?

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

I guess i should have checked.

Knowing what he had, he would have lead out a larger amount. say 300 if i had checked to him on the turn.

In that case whats your play? Am i calling looking for the flush? Are my kings good?

At this point there is 1100 in the pot and you need to call 300. You might have the best hand right now and if not, you have at least 9 outs on the river (provided that he doesn't have the A-high flush draw - particularly AcKc) and maybe 13 if non-club Ks and 3s are outs for you. This means you are about 3:1 against to win assuming you're not ahead right now - I call.

The thing when you hit TPNK is not to get too excited, my priority at this point would be to try to get to showdown cheap.

Taipan wrote:

(provided that he doesn't have the A-high flush draw - particularly AcKc)

AcKc is not really an option unless they are playing with a special deck

It is very hard to refer to this post witout knowing exact stacks and the stage of the tournament and payout strucutre.
I think there is a reasonable chance you are ahead of AJ, AQ, 77-TT.
You are behind KJ and 55,66, but you have 9 outs to redraw

Originally Posted by TLR

Taipan wrote:

(provided that he doesn't have the A-high flush draw - particularly AcKc)

AcKc is not really an option unless they are playing with a special deck

Ah yes, that would be the deck where the best hand is 5 of a kind . You know what I mean though, lots of fish think Ax suited is DA NUTS.

Originally Posted by taipan168

Originally Posted by TLR

Taipan wrote:

(provided that he doesn't have the A-high flush draw - particularly AcKc)

AcKc is not really an option unless they are playing with a special deck

Ah yes, that would be the deck where the best hand is 5 of a kind . You know what I mean though, lots of fish think Ax suited is DA NUTS.

Yeah, know what you mean, just wanted to point out that TP + FD is not possible here for villian

I almost couldnt believe what he turned over.

I know it doesn't matter and that my push was a little loose to say the least. But it turns out i pushed into K5 off!!!!!!

I actually laughed (and so did the two pros and three other guys at the table). Naturally ill be introducing him to stars and sending you all his username details next week!

Against a tight opp I don't think your push was bad.

With 2200+ chips at 50/100, you should not be able to go broke with K3 unless you hit at least two pair. If you are able to, then I think the best play was to fold preflop, because in the long run the nice pot odds preflop don't make up for what you lose post flop.

Also, for the record, what your M is going to be in a few minutes is much less significant than what your M is now. You M tells you how important the chips in the pot are to you (smaller = more important).

Further, I've never heard of a blind structure that would put your M at 11 when it gets raised. Either blinds rise to 75/150 (giving you and M of 2150/(75+150) = 9.5) or they rise to 100/200 (giving you an M of 2150/(100+200) = 7.16). Either way, you want to start picking up chips when you can, but in neither situation are you even remotely desperate. Certainly not enough to push for double the pot with TPNK.

I was not playing my cards. I had top pair and 9 outs to the flush. But his 100 into 600 looked weak on the flop repping 1 pair at the most so i pushed the turn figuring i was probably ahead anyway with outs to the flush, but really looking for the fold.

This is the play im asking about. I was not betting for value i just thought his steal was weak and i'd take it off him. Are you saying that i don't need the chips badly enough to pull this at an early stage or that this is a bad move anyway you look at it?

The M was right but my stack may not be 100% correct. It was live and a few days ago.

Further, I've never heard of a blind structure that would put your M at 11 when it gets raised. Either blinds rise to 75/150 (giving you and M of 2150/(75+150) = 9.5) or they rise to 100/200 (giving you an M of 2150/(100+200) = 7.16

blinds probably went up to 60/120 M=2150/180=11.9

This is the structure used in FullTilt (50/100,60/120,80/160)

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

I was not playing my cards. I had top pair and 9 outs to the flush. But his 100 into 600 looked weak on the flop repping 1 pair at the most so i pushed the turn figuring i was probably ahead anyway with outs to the flush, but really looking for the fold.

You stated as part of your read that he was a minbet-aholic. If someone is basically only minbetting, then you can't use the fact that he minbet as a sign of weakness. With an 800 chip pot, betting something like 500-600 is a far better play - you don't go broke when you're wrong. You said you weren't playing your cards, but then justified the play by explaining your holding, so I'll address it: with only one card to come, the 9 outs to the flush aren't as helpful as they seem. If you're behind, you will improve only 18-24% of the time (depending on if the 3 is live or not). Basically, this is either a way ahead or way behind situation. I'd much rather keep the pot relatively small in such a situation - if he has nothing, he'll likely fold to a smaller bet at least as often as to a larger one (as overbets typically scream draw and weakness [though I'll admit that chances are this guy was too dull to know that anyway]).

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

This is the play im asking about. I was not betting for value i just thought his steal was weak and i'd take it off him. Are you saying that i don't need the chips badly enough to pull this at an early stage or that this is a bad move anyway you look at it?

In essence, yes, that's what I'm saying. Do you want the chips? Sure. But you don't need them bad enough to risk 2k to win 800 when the only way you get called is when your 25% to win. If you think you may be ahead now, then check/call to the showdown seems best to me (especially given that opp is letting you do so for cheap). If you think you are behind but that your opp is weak (this isn't even really possible at this point), then bet out, but don't bet the house on it.

Originally Posted by TLR

blinds probably went up to 60/120 M=2150/180=11.9

This is the structure used in FullTilt (50/100,60/120,80/160)

If you can show me a live casino that uses this structure, I'll show you an address that needs to become mine.