Examples of using ICM

Can anyone post some real examples of when and how to use ICM? I already read the thread "ICM, how it works and what it does" but I couldn't see any posts about how poeple use it in real problems. Do you use SNGWIZ instead which does it (I guess) automatically?

I def use SNG in reviewing all my games but what you need to remember is that SNG whiz is absolutely no good unless you adjust villains ranges.

You have stated that you read the ICM article previously so I am going to assume that you comprehend it. For reference purposes I am just going to state that ICM assigns each chip a certain value according to stack size, number of players left, and pay out structure.

First Example is going to be a fairly std bvb spot. 18 man with 10 left (FT bubble)

---Tournament Summary---
$27 TSNG: Payout unknown
Data for 1 hand.



-----Hand 1-----
Hero's M = 11.23
PokerStars Game #31041694224: Tournament #183295234, $25+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2009/07/30 4:10:58 ET
Table '183295234 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: rashuli (2400)
Seat 2: quinters (3775)
Seat 3: spanners (9310)
Seat 4: auggiemundo (2375)
Seat 5: CHADLEYDABOY (1635)
Seat 6: fimex (1310)
Seat 7: renem24 (2825)
Seat 9: Hero (3370)
auggiemundo: posts small blind 100
CHADLEYDABOY: posts big blind 200
Preflop
Dealt to Hero 4 7
fimex: folds
renem24: folds
Hero: folds
rashuli: folds
quinters: folds
spanners: folds
auggiemundo: calls 100
CHADLEYDABOY: raises 1410 to 1610 and is all-in
auggiemundo: folds
Uncalled bet (1410) returned to CHADLEYDABOY
CHADLEYDABOY collected 600

Here we see that hero has 74o vrs bb and bb has less then 10bb. Whiz/ICM without adjusted ranges is going to say this is a 100% shove atc bvb yadayada. I can totally agree with whiz is bb is calling me as tight as 20%. However, is bb always calling me 20%, of course not. I have been quite active at this point and some of the player surly have gotten somewhat frustrated at me by this point. If this was my first bvb confrontation with villain then this is going to be an easy shove because he still assumes that I am a fairly tight player. Because of his perception vrs me, I am going to assume that he is going to call me somewhat properly wide this next hand and i'll go ahead and say he will call something around 30%. That little 10% change is now making this a -ev shove on my part simply because the risk does not out weigh the reward. Whiz now "suggests" I only shove ~75% in this spot.

Ok so what do you do when the spot is close and you think it is sort of thin either way. I would recommend that you just look and see if the tournie/sng you are in has a lot of good players or is "tough". If the whole sng is a pretty tough field and full of regs, I go ahead and make that thin shove because I know I am not going to get a whole lot of other plus ev spots to take in the future. On the other hand, if there aren't a whole lot of good players, then I just pass it up and look for a better spot because I know it's coming

One thing that was not covered in the ICM article you mentioned was the limitations of it. ICM is but a mathematical model to try to analyze complex poker situations. ICM is far from perfect. ICM overvalues short stacks. ICM analyzes a hand in a "bubble" and does not factor how a present action will affect future actions (i.e. people's loosening or tightening of calling ranges based on your image etc etc.) ICM doesn't understand stack sizes, fold equity, table image, bubble abuse, secondary bubbles, pot odds, etc etc etc etc ICM knows only prize pool, and 1 chip = x% of prize pool = what your chip stack is worth.

So lets just say how shoving this could effect me here. Even if I do shove and win the hand that isn't the greatest thing ever. Why? Because I have to show down a crappy hand to the other players at the table. This is going to greatly effect there calling range once we get to the final table and I will no longer have as much fold equity vrs them, maybe in a really important spot. What I am trying to say here is that sometimes it isn't bad to pass up a slightly marginal spot because you know you will find better ones at the table. This will help reduce your variance. Now on the flip side, it might be better to take a neg ev spot to account for future situations.

Lets take a look at this 3 handed situation in the same tournie.

---Tournament Summary---
$27 TSNG: Payout unknown
Data for 1 hand.


-----Hand 2-----
Hero's M = 12.36
PokerStars Game #31041780662: Tournament #183295234, $25+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2009/07/30 4:18:31 ET
Table '183295234 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: rashuli (5985)
Seat 3: spanners (8295)
Seat 4: auggiemundo (1600)
Seat 9: Hero (11120)
auggiemundo: posts small blind 300
Hero: posts big blind 600
Preflop
Dealt to Hero 4 J
rashuli: folds
spanners: folds
auggiemundo: raises 950 to 1550 and is all-in
Hero: folds
Uncalled bet (950) returned to auggiemundo
auggiemundo collected 1400

Is this a call? Sure it is, I will make plenty of money calling off just about 100% of hands here because of the sole fact I am getting 2.5-1 on the call and it really doesn't hurt my stack if I lose. Lets stop and think about some future situations though. To my knowledge spanners is a below average reg that plays to tight. I do give him credit however in knowing that it would be atrocious for him to call off his stack when other short stacks are around. It would demolish his equity and make mr Whiz cry. Rashuli has somewhat reg stats and realizes the same thing as spanners. Keep in mind that this is an 18 man sng and we are already ITM. Well I decide to take the other route and fold. I make according to whiz a neg ev call. I do this knowing that the two remaining mid stacks are going to be calling me sick tight because they know it would be awful for them to donk out before the shorty. I go ahead and keep the invisible bubble alive because I think there is more value in owning these other stacks a bit more then in making this call.

I think these two situations should help you understand a bit better how ICM calculates things, as well as it's limitations. If you have any questions or would like some additional examples, feel free to ask.

Thank you very much! I loved your explanation, especially the final part. I never thought about that folding tactic, though it is -EV. I think it should apply when you get nice fold equity because your fold is basically designed to steal a future pot e.g. when the blinds are bigger. ı don't think it applies to the level I play - $1 BI. The idea of folding when you are shoving 75% of time according to ICM is also a striking example.

So, noone is using ICM sheet anymore, since it is practically difficult to make detailed calculations in a limited time. Even though, I made similar decision while playing, I never used ICM. So, I don't have any experience to apply ICM while playing and wanted to see how people does it. I guess I will have to buy SNGWIZ, which almost all pro's stated many times here.

You may try it.It is easy to use.