Facing a shove from a tight multi tabler

This guy was a 10/4 and I has only played kings up untill now. In that hand he was the raiser so im not sure if he is capable of just calling with a big hand.
So the question is what in the world does a 10/4 flat with oop and then over bet the pot with? Also, I am a 5/3 at this point with 0 ats.
$5.00+$0.50 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL IV (50/100) - 2009/01/21 11:21:19 ET
Table '135488440 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Goalie82 (1895 in chips)
Seat 2: MidnightW (1815 in chips)
Seat 3: brian1175 (1450 in chips)
Seat 6: MasterPiet7 (3660 in chips)
Seat 7: danii82 (2870 in chips)
Seat 8: santino333 (1170 in chips)
Seat 9: pottel16 (640 in chips)
MasterPiet7: posts small blind 50
danii82: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to brian1175 [Jh Ah]
santino333: folds
pottel16: folds
Goalie82: folds
MidnightW: folds
brian1175: raises 200 to 300
MasterPiet7: calls 250
danii82: folds
*** FLOP *** [7c 9s Jc]
MasterPiet7: bets 1300
brian1175: folds
Uncalled bet (1300) returned to MasterPiet7
MasterPiet7 collected 700 from pot
MasterPiet7: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 700 | Rake 0
Board [7c 9s Jc]
Seat 1: Goalie82 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: MidnightW folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: brian1175 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: MasterPiet7 (small blind) collected (700)
Seat 7: danii82 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: santino333 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: pottel16 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

how many hands was he 10/4 over, just out of curiosity

I snap call here. He either has AJ also, possibly KJ, QJ, JT, just a draw (clubs or straight), a pair and a draw (like A9c), or he is pulling a stop and go with nothing but overs or a smaller pair.

I don't think he plays an over pair or set this way, although it's possible.

shove pre, call now

shove pre? Thats terrible...

no, what's terrible is setting him up to stop and go you, then wanting to fold after you flop top pair. His most likely hand is a lower PP that wanted to make sure an A did not flop, and then missed overs. His play makes no sense with a big hand and if he has one you tip your cap and move on.

you shove pre in hopes he will fold a lower PP or KQ that he would have come over the top with. You're going to call a shove anyway. The only reason to only raise is that you think they may shove worse As over you but clearly that is not your read.

Total , I have 189 hands and have him as a 15/10 total average. But his stats go up as the blinds increase like you would expect. So I would say, up to the 100 level he is a 10/6 after about 100 hands.

So you shove AJ into the $150 worth of blinds....what hands call me? I would rather fold this than shove here....

Your M of 10 vs. the blinds, at least one of whom is a tight player = easy shove pre. as played, snap call.

This is a joke..right? an M of 10 and we shove? Maybe I need to go else where.....

the good news is folding pre is much better than folding on this flop, although this is similar to saying it's better to be robbed at gunpoint than
anally raped.

If you're unwilling to listen to advice or present a counter point of view, you may be better off elsewhere, but I suggest you stick around for a while.

What hands do you think will call you?

The thread wasn't asking for advice on how to play the hand. The thread ask's "So the question is what in the world does a 10/4 flat with oop and then over bet the pot with?"

that's been answered - underpairs, overs are the best bet.

No one is much worried about the 10/4 because the stack sizes are much more important here and as you said above that will change anyway as the blinds go up. It also makes a big difference that it's button vs SB, he probably isn't playing 10/4 vs a BU open who has 15 BBs.

He isn't really over betting the pot since any bet commits him. And being OOP is an advantage in this case since he can choose to open shove and put you in a tough spot if you miss the flop, or check to you if he makes a big hand.

If you post a hand, you're going to get feedback. If all you care about it what his range is, stop the HH after he calls you.

I do prefer being robbed at gunpoint rather than being anally raped though.

also, LOL @ folding

The reason you shove is because:
1. They'll fold many hands they would have called and/or shoved over with had you simply raised.
2. Folding is absurd.
3. You'd like to see all 5 cards if called.
4. Adding 10% to your stack without a fight the vast majority of the time is great.

and most importantly:
A standard cbet is going to commit half your stack. If you missed this flop and he checked to you, are you going to give up and check back?

Villain has a flush draw, underpair or overs...can't ever see him playing a better hand this way.

these guys have way more expereince then me, but i'm not shoving, i like the preflop bet cause i can still fold to a shove, it's still nine handed and blinds arn't that high. as played defiantly calling as i think previously stated range for villian is pretty good under pair, KJ, QJ,etc and possibly over pair...

Folding to a shove is bad.

I haven't been playing sngs that long and I don't have sngo wiz, so I have just been doing it by feel and reading posted hands here and such. But here are my feelings on AJ with these stacks. I definitely appreciate comments, because I feel like I am sometimes making the wrong decisions with shove/fold game.

For me if the blinds were 75/150, I would be shoving here preflop no question with AJ. And if the blinds were 25/50, I'd raise more standard (3x). At around 50/100, this is where my intuitions fails me. I would be hesitant about what to do with AJ here, since I feel like an M=10 might be too much to shove, but too little to raise. I think I tend to go many ways here depending on the table, sometimes I open shove and sometimes I raise like 2.25-2.5x (especially if I noticed that one of the blinds clicks autofold, so that the size of my raise doesn't matter at all). The sad thing is that when faced with this decision, I am often relieved when there is a raise and 3 bet infront of me and I can fold without having to make the tough decisions.

What about 40/80 blinds? Is this an open shove, or a standard raise?

bubble sucks

get the shit in there

make the call

Shove is fine. Blinds worth 10% of stack and he is calling tight if 10/4 is any sort of level accurate description.

I don't mind a raise and that is probably my line but I make it to 250 not 300. I insta-call the flop.

As the level increases this becomes exploitable by thinking players who can shove over preflop wide profitably if they think you fold a lot of your opening range. In a $5.50 they won't generally be that good, so opening is fine, unless you play the hand like this, in which case it is terrible.

you gotta love, "opening is fine, unless you play the hand like this, then it is terrible."

The only way you can play it like this is if you are either 1) hoping he'll fold preflop and then giving up if he calls or 2) hoping he'll fold to a c-bet (which this guy will only make if he makes TPTK).

So Ginger, if you open AJ her for 250 and one of the blinds shove, are you folding?

My problem with not shoving is about 2/3 of the time you have to make a really hard decision, be it calling a shove on a board you miss, over betting the pot AI after they check or making some weird 300 bet on the flop to try and get away from it. Make them make the tough decisions. Again, the only reason I can see to not shove is if you are sure they will come over the top really wide

This ignores the equity you gain when they fold smaller pairs or Kx Qx types they might take a flop with and ignores the win from taking away the stop and go.

Anyone who is raise folding pre flop has not done the math. We're barely behind the top 10%.

I'm not raise folding preflop without a huge read. I'm basically never getting that read so no I don't fold.

I actually think my 15BB play is one of the weakest points in my game, and like drmc's point about giving them tough decisions. May have to run some math on push spots with these stacks

ya, ~15 BB level is very difficult and leads to some real frowny face head scratch spots whatever we do (unless we flop TPTK ) . in EP we can probably raise fold in some spots or make some super weird open folds. Sitting here thinking about it min raising might also be good sometimes to try and leave room for a small c bet fold

Originally Posted by taipan168

My general rule is that any time there is >15% of my stack in the pot preflop (ie. including any limps and the blinds) and I have a hand that I want to play (apart from monster hands like AA/KK) then I just shove it preflop.

Despite the above quote, I'm all good with a PF shove at 15-ish BB. As played, I shove the flop.

I agree that stack size is slightly awkward for the push and I go with taipan's 15% rule generally, which we don't have here...however...it's close enough...we're not in good shape at all, 7-handed and we have less than our starting stack.

Anyway, even if the players in the blinds here are good players and none of the above applies, I'm shoving AJs here like 100% of the time...actually, I'm shoving a lot worse hands so AJs is probably near the top of my range.

If we were slightly bigger (like 2,000), I'd open for a normal raise, but I'd make it 2.5x rather than 3x. And still not folding on this flop.

My first choice would be to shove, my second choice would be to raise to 250 rather than 300.

As played, I agree with the others, I am snap calling; if opp trapped with QQ+ then so be it. Frankly I would expect a tight opp to have something like AcKc or AcQc far more often than something that has us crushed.

Baudib, I think shoving a lot worse with 15BBs is a mistake.

So I figured having written that I should check it in WIZ. assuming a calling range I think reasonable at this level you should push with {77+, AJ+} (although the usual "risking 10BBs" thing is there.

Other wide calling ranges have you shoving AT, but really, it is not a wide shove, and the reason is the risk:reward ratio.

What I don't get is how first it's the 10BB shove/fold rule. But then 11, 12BBs are tough to play, so shove them as well. Now it's "15 is difficult too, so I shove them."

Realise that if this is your policy, you must be tighter and NOT shove your normal button opening range. The more being called by a better hand hurts relative to the reward, the tighter you have to be.

To the original poster. SHoving is not terrible here. Mathematically it is profitable so you can sleep easy. Shoving much less than AJ would be terrible, and I'm not sure minraising wouldn't be better (but I aint done maths on that).

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

What I don't get is how first it's the 10BB shove/fold rule. But then 11, 12BBs are tough to play, so shove them as well. Now it's "15 is difficult too, so I shove them."

I don't think there was ever a hard and fast rule. My guide has always been that if the size of the pot preflop (ie. including the blinds and any limpers/raisers in front) is so large that by raising less than AI we would be either pot-committed on the flop or crippled if we had to fold, then we should just shove preflop if we want to play.

Your point about having to tighten your shove range as your stack size increases is very valid however.

we've already established there is at least one tight player in the blinds...shouldn't we expand to at least KQ/most pairs?

Nope. Used tight ranges and that TIGHTENS our range. (Mainly because we take a lot of Ax we dominate out.)

Hmm... food for thought.

Interesting thread. FWIW I push this for a couple of reasons.

1. I prefer my opponents having to make the difficult decisions rather than me.
2. If we miss, c-betting commits too much of our stack here. We will just be haemorrhaging chips.
3. When I push I expect to win the pot uncontested most of the time.
4. The times I do contest a pot I will probably not be too far behind. The hand that we are significantly behind are AA-JJ and AK-AQ. I also expect calling ranges of opps to be slightly wider than that.

As played I tend to call an AI like this. These bets are usually not monsters and are usually made with hands like MP or a SD/FD, where the opponent doesn't necessarily know how to continue if called or reraised. Would you raise AI OOP with 2 pair or a set when an opponent has shown aggression and is likely to c-bet? Even bad players seems to understand this

Originally Posted by taipan168

My first choice would be to shove, my second choice would be to raise to 250 rather than 300.

As played, I agree with the others, I am snap calling; if opp trapped with QQ+ then so be it. Frankly I would expect a tight opp to have something like AcKc or AcQc far more often than something that has us crushed.

this

It might be QQ+ scared of the coordinated board but mostly it's a draw that wants you to fold. Most monsters want you to cbet, not fold.