first JJProdigy, now ZeeJustin????

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Maybe I'm just not a very good writer or something.

I don't think this is the problem.

Cheating in a given game is defined as acting in such a way that you break the rules of the game. What game are you playing when you play at Party Poker? It seems like you're playing a game according to the specific rules that Party Poker provides. Sure, what you're doing might fall under the more broad category of "poker", but given that Party provides a complete and consistent set of rules and regulations, I think "Party Poker poker" constitutes a unique game. So, if you're playing at Party Poker, and you're not breaking their rules, you're not cheating. End of discussion.

Originally Posted by pgil

you dont think being coached on how to play a hand is cheating?? how so. and just because there isnt a specific rule against it... so you must be the reason they made jumping off of tall buildings illegal. i get it now.

How does PA tell you how to play a hand?

I read someone in this post stating that he played multiple accounts on the same machine... how the hell is that possbile? You can't run partypoker twice or more... ?

My best guess would be via a virtual machine. Its a piece of software that allows you to run another instance of an OS over the top of an existing OS installation. I use it as a sandbox to play with virii and trojans I get from my ISP customers. This protects me from the actual virii infecting my own machine and could obviously be used to run muliple poker sites

actually, zeejustin stated that if you just click the Party shortcut quickly enough, it will open up a second program.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I agree with Lukie. I can understand why some people would object to the use of PokerAce HUD, but I don't agree with them. Moreover, the poker sites are well aware of its existence, and they have not made any attempt whatsoever to get people not to use it, nor does it violate any of the rules that they have set forth. To me, "cheating" means breaking a rule, so I don't consider this software cheating.

Also, the fact that PokerAceHUD allows you to make more informed decisions at the table isn't any kind of a reason to ban it. Programs that you don't even use while you're playing, like PokerStove and SNG PowerTools, also give you information that you wouldn't otherwise have, and you can apply that information the next time you play. This would only be a reason to ban PokerAce HUD if it gave one player an unfair advantage over another, which it doesn't. It's a well-known program and anyone who wants to use it can just buy it, so it doesn't give anyone an unfair advantage. It might be more useful to players who play a lot and therefore have stats on more players, but I don't think that's any kind of a reason to ban it. Experience gives you a lot of advantages in poker, and a lot of them are much bigger than potentially having played 50 hands against 2 players at your table. Even as much as I play, it almost never happens that I have stats on 3 or more players at my table.

Im not saying using these programs is wrong, I think its fine. But the arguement that its moral because there isnt a rule against it is weak. I remember watching a show where a woman moved into an apartment and some time later found a camera wired up into her smoke detector. It connected to her land lords vcr... She called the police and to thier and her amazement there was nothing that the land lord could be arrested for. Because sound was not recorded and there had been no laws preventing someone from video taping you, just agains tthem recording audio in your private property (or something to taht affect.) Does this make what this perv did right? Obviously not.

Again Im not argueing that they are wrong, just pointing out the weakness of your arguement.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

actually, zeejustin stated that if you just click the Party shortcut quickly enough, it will open up a second program.

hah

Originally Posted by boostNslide

Im not saying using these programs is wrong, I think its fine. But the arguement that its moral because there isnt a rule against it is weak. I remember watching a show where a woman moved into an apartment and some time later found a camera wired up into her smoke detector. It connected to her land lords vcr... She called the police and to thier and her amazement there was nothing that the land lord could be arrested for. Because sound was not recorded and there had been no laws preventing someone from video taping you, just agains tthem recording audio in your private property (or something to taht affect.) Does this make what this perv did right? Obviously not.

Again Im not argueing that they are wrong, just pointing out the weakness of your arguement.

Where are you guys coming up with these analogies? I said it's not cheating if there's no rule against it. That's the definition of cheating, it means breaking a rule. Like you're saying, something can be unethical even if it isn't cheating.

Lukie is totally right, it's pointless to keep making these comparisons to completely unrelated topics, it doesn't prove anything. I don't understand why people can't have a discussion about poker software without bringing up athletes using steroids, perverts video taping people, and monkeys having sexual intercourse with sporting goods.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

monkeys having sexual intercourse with sporting goods

if you can dodge a wrench....

Technically it is against the rules to consult with someone else how to play a hand when the hand is in play. You must use your own knowledge to come to a decision on how to play the hand. HUD's basically allow you get around that. You're using the data compiled and organized by a program to help you make your decisions.

If you datamine and have a lot of information on another player without having even played with them, how is that fair? What if they don't have any prior information about you?

Regardless if they're allowed or not, I believe certain programs such as HUD's are unfair. No, it's not cheating because in some instances there aren't specific rules against them. Ethically though, things aren't so cut-and-dried.

From the stanpoint of a purist (not that I'm one), these programs take away from the game. Poker is a people game. Using these programs makes a player a lesser part of the equation. If you're making a decison to call a PF raise based strictly on a person's VP$IP and PFR%, how are you any different than a bot that is programmed to do the same thing?

May as well chime in with my 2 cents.... Many of the points above about coaching, datamining, HUD's are subjective and have been argued from both sides. As far as I'm concerned Poker is a essentially a maths game, the only way to really cheat at it is if you change the mathematics of the game to tilt the odds in your favour. Aside from actually seeing your opponents cards, having two accounts at the same table or in the same tournament is the only way of doing this, anything else is fair game as its all just tactics/use of free information that everyone has access to, therefore leaving the pure mathematical odds of the game intact.

Poker is a people game. Using these programs makes a player a lesser part of the equation.

What people, its a fucking computer screen. Now if they start to require webcams to be able to play poker, then we might be going somewhere.

Originally Posted by ihategnomes

Poker is a people game. Using these programs makes a player a lesser part of the equation.

What people, its a fucking computer screen. Now if they start to require webcams to be able to play poker, then we might be going somewhere.

It is still a people game, even if your behind a computer screen.

diffrent games and you will be fine...

same games, and even if you dont cheat, it still may be called cheating by the site...

by that logic steroids arent cheating because anyone can use them.

Steroids are against the rules, therefore, using steroids is cheating.
PokerAce/PT is not against the rules, therefire, useing PokerAce/PT isnt cheating.

To argue that they are cheating is a waste of time, they are not, pokerstars even sent an email mentioning them by name saying that they are not (at this time) cheating.

Now, instead agrue that they SHOULD be against the rules... and then we can have a good debate


Edit: Note to self.. make sure your on the last page of a thread before responding to a post...

just to clear the air, I was not equating steroid use with using pokertracker/pokerace. I was instead making a claim that, if the logic of a particular poster was followed (that something that is readily available to all isnt cheating) it would mean that steroids should not be considered cheating. that is all.

PG If you think PT + PA is so wrong just play elsewhere where PT is not supported. Or get with the times and use the software yourself.

i do currently play mainly at a site that does not support PT, and when moving sites this will be a major determinant. although i do still have money at pokerstars, and probably always will.