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JJ in SB

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  1. #1

    Default JJ in SB

    Lock Poker - $750 GTD Bounty - 30/150/300 Blinds - 8 Players - 38 Players left out of 198, if that makes a difference (I think 27 spots paid)

    UTG+1 - 11,396
    MP - 4,780
    HJ - 18,700
    CO - 4,847
    BTN - 3,932
    SB (Hero) - 7,745
    BB - 8,508
    UTG - 9,352

    Pot is 690

    Dealt to Hero J, J

    2 folds, MP raises to 795, fold, CO calls 795, fold, Hero ???


    Obviously, this is a 3-bet but is this a 3-bet shove or 3-bet to 3000 or so just to force the one of the other two to shove (do we even want that w/ JJ)? I sensed weakness with the 1.5x raise and the call, and I have about 20 hands on both villains so I don't have too much in terms of reads. However, with their stack sizes and the blind sizes I felt that there would have been more action if either had a big/bigger hand.

    A shove could mean taking the pot down or even taking one of them out (which is great since it better positions me for a deeper run). However, a sizable 3-bet would put about half my stack into the post, which at that point I might as well shove. Thoughts?
  2. #2
    I'd definitely shove this w/ no reads. Even if we get called and lose we aren't in horrible shape and chances are we take down the pot a lot of the time and some people are going to call with hands we have beat.
    Last edited by Savy; 05-08-2013 at 12:05 AM.
  3. #3
    All in. 3betting to 3,000 is pointless, it's basically all of their stacks anyway, just shove
  4. #4
    Well first of all you can't make them fold. You can make it easier or harder for them, but that's all.

    There's so much money in the pot by the time it gets to you, you really should be shoving here. Clearly you're fine with a call from either of them, but you scoop a decent pot regardless.

    If you had KK or AA I'd be all over a smaller 3bet to say 2,200 or so.
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  5. #5
    shoving is ok, good hand put close to the bubble PUSH ,PUSH !
    flat calling is also ok to get more of a read and seeing a flop is okay (in my opinion) with a med pair! and could also pay off being in the bb disguising your hand strength so close to the bubble ! (what do you think? ) what actually happened?
  6. #6
    What Actually Happened:

    I ended up shoving. I didn't want to call because I don't want to see an overcard OTF, where in a three-handed+ pot I would have to c/f. Since I sensed weakness, I felt that those shorter stacks would call with something weaker, or even fold if they are lolbad. I also felt like I needed to better position myself for the money and to go deeper in tourney.

    BB, which had me covered, ended up shoving too w/ QJ off. CO called/shoved w/ A7 off. Stupid BB hit a Q OTF and I got booted. I felt like I made the right play, since I got my money in ahead, but I wanted to know if there was another good way to play the JJ here that would have maybe kept me in the tourney.
  7. #7
    Getting your money in with just under 50% chance of winning to triple up isn't that bad. You don't really want to be folding or flat calling because against two people any overcard scares you and you don't really have the chips to lose.
    Last edited by Savy; 05-09-2013 at 02:26 PM.
  8. #8
    Sykedupp's Avatar
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    Anything but shove here is pretty terrible when compared to the EV you have when you shove.

    Flatting here is probably almost as bad as folding.
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sykedupp View Post
    Anything but shove here is pretty terrible when compared to the EV you have when you shove.

    Flatting here is probably almost as bad as folding.
    This entire post is incorrect. Sure flatting isn't the best way to play the hand, but it's not ANYWHERE close to the absurd mistake folding is. Your statement that flatting is probably almost as bad as folding is insane.

    "Anything but shove is pretty terrible" is also incorrect because 3bet less than all-in is not only valid but quite possibly better.
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  10. #10
    The effective stacks involved the hand are 16bbs so I just shove
  11. #11
    Sykedupp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    This entire post is incorrect. Sure flatting isn't the best way to play the hand, but it's not ANYWHERE close to the absurd mistake folding is. Your statement that flatting is probably almost as bad as folding is insane.

    "Anything but shove is pretty terrible" is also incorrect because 3bet less than all-in is not only valid but quite possibly better.
    Folding loses you -180 chips.
    Flatting and folding half of your flops (chance of overcard(s) flopping) costs you -825 chips half the time, and if you get a random undercards flop (lets say Tx8s5s) and go against a range of hands that will stack off on the flop, you're likely looking at something like 88+,55,KTs,QTs,JTs,AsKs,AsQs,KsQs,AsJs,KsJs,AsTs,A s9s,Ks9s,As7s,As6s,As4s,As3s,As2s,ATo,KTo,QTo,JTo ... to which you're 54% with JJ. So 46% of the time you lose 4800 chips (either of the villians have about 4800), 54% of the time you win about 5500 chips, for a net of about +780 chips.... half the time.
    +780 chips half the time and -825 chips half the time = overall EV of -45 chips.

    I assumed alot of things up there, and my post is mostly meant in satirical fashion, however in many situations, flat calling is legit not going to be much better then folding.

    I disagree specifically with JJ about 3betting less then all-in because many of the hands your "less then all in" 3bet will scare out are actually hands we really want to play against, and have at least 70% equity vs... hands like AT, 44, 55, etc. About the only hand I can think of that might call your shove but fold to your 3bet that we actually WANT to fold, is KQ. I think based on the fact that we accidentally scare away lower pairs and bad Ax more often then 'exactly' KQ, shove is much better then 3betting small.
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  12. #12
    Sykedupp's Avatar
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    All that being said, I can understand how my post might have been taken in a non-satirical way, so I will try to cut the sarcasm out from now on. Sorry.
    Last edited by Sykedupp; 05-10-2013 at 05:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by agnesamurphy View Post
    What Actually Happened:
    Since I sensed weakness, .
    I'm not sure how you sense 'weakness' here in this spot?
    When I see a MP player on 16bb's raising near full 3x I'm assuming he's never folding & is likely raising top of their range.
    Also, when I see player in CO only 'flatting' a 3x raise, also sitting on only 16bb's, unless I have a read that this guy is just bad I'm going to consider that they might be trapping (depends on history/reads).
    Regardless, vs. these stacks in this spot I'd choose to 3bai here w JJ.
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Poker Orifice View Post
    I'm not sure how you sense 'weakness' here in this spot?
    When I see a MP player on 16bb's raising near full 3x I'm assuming he's never folding & is likely raising top of their range.
    Also, when I see player in CO only 'flatting' a 3x raise, also sitting on only 16bb's, unless I have a read that this guy is just bad I'm going to consider that they might be trapping (depends on history/reads).
    Regardless, vs. these stacks in this spot I'd choose to 3bai here w JJ.
    MP's raise is closer to 1.5x than 3 (maybe this is up for debate but 1.5x of a 300 blind is 600, so 795 is closer to 750 than to 900). That's why I thought it was weak and didn't think it was a 'top of their range' hand. CO call to that said to me, "I want to see this flop" and not "I'm trapping."
  15. #15
    intreresting reading everyones posts the problem with this hand i think is that jacks are medium pairs not premium !
    its a tough spot i know, we are flipping most of the time here ! jacks are hated in every corner of the globe im sure of it lol

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