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KK In BB Faces Raise From Big Stack (9 man SNG)

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  1. #1

    Default KK In BB Faces Raise From Big Stack (9 man SNG)

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.5 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

    CO (t1,065)
    Button (t900)
    SB (t5,375)
    Hero (BB) (t3,175)
    UTG (t1,805)
    MP (t1,180)

    Hero's M: 10.58

    Preflop: Hero is BB with K, K
    4 folds, SB bets t600

    Total pot: t400

    This was a tough spot for me. I had a stack that I was comfortable enough with for the time being, but the blinds of course were rising. I faced a raise from the one player that could put me out of the sng.

    This was my first tournament with this opponent so I didn't have any numbers on him that are worthwhile.

    Does anybody flat or fold here? Is this a shove? Do I 3-bet and fold to a shove?
  2. #2
    This is a really easy decision - you'll look one day and laugh at this question

    To start with, you should be aiming to take all profitable spots and build up chips; it's not about being "comfortable enough". That attitude will mean you'll blind down a lot and very rarely win SNGs. Look at the difference in winnings between 1st and 2nd place and you'll see why you'd rather win tournaments than come 2nd.

    So, what range do you think he raises here, given it's folded round to him in the small blind and he's the big stack? Do you think he raises T9s, AT, KT, 43, etc?

    Pokerstove might help: https://github.com/andrewprock/pokerstove

    Open it, click on "Player 1" and in the 2nd tab you can click on all the hands you think he'd raise. Press OK then copy the text from the text box
  3. #3
    Yesterday I would have thought it was an easy decision too, now I'm second guessing myself though. Nice to know that you see it the way I do however.

    I'm on a Mac so Pokerstove isn't an option for me. I have used equity calculators often though, and I understand the point you're making.

    I guess what I'm second guessing exactly is if it is worth risking the tournament against the only player on the table with the chips to eliminate me. I can fold here and still have over 10 BB.

    Don't misunderstand me, I think folding here is a mistake, and I think flatting is even worse, I guess I just need some reinforcement right now with this line of thinking.

    I will say though that I don't think his range here is too open. At least mine wouldn't be in his shoes. Against any of the other stacks at this table sure.. I'm raising any pair, any broadway cards and connecters etc. too. But I had the chips to cripple him. So my thinking at the time was he had 77+, AJo+, A5s+.. something along those lines. So I knew the odds were in my favour 8 times of 10, but I also had to acknowledge that it was gonna be a flip if he called a shove.
  4. #4
    You have the chips to cripple him - but only if you shove AND he calls. If he raises, you shove and he folds, he isn't crippled at all. If he raises and you fold, he gains.

    If your range is right, you have 70% equity. I'd give him a raise calling range of say 77+, AJo+, ATs+. You have 71% equity against that range. That's an amazing edge to have considering you ONLY have 15bb and will have even less when the blinds go up; you're approaching the stage where you can push any two Blind v Blind profitably. Not only that, but doubling up gives you the chips to push people around the table with.

    Add to that the fact that his raise/fold range is WAY bigger than just that. He's raising suited connectors, weaker aces, strong kings, broadways. You have 100% against this range for 600 chips, which is 20% of your stack
  5. #5
    Well thank you, I feel a little better about this hand now. I needed the reinforcement on this one.
  6. #6
    we can state with certainty that folding is in fact much worse than flatting
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy View Post
    we can state with certainty that folding is in fact much worse than flatting
    With certainty? I'd love to be convinced if you could explain.

    My thinking here is that folding, while weak, doesn't risk more of my chips. Flatting let's my opponent see a flop. If the board comes with an Ace or a straight/flush draw heavy board, I have a difficult time to know where I'm at. Remembering that he has the chips to almost certainly C-bet here. I also set myself up to be set-mined on a middle/low pair. Folding post flop costs me that extra 400 chips that I flatted with.

    If my thinking here is faulty, please correct me.
  8. #8
    It's impossible to win a sng without risking chips somewhere and you have a godly hand right now.

    Passing up on such a hugely profitable spot is a mistake. Folding here will cost you money.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by derekeverett View Post
    With certainty? I'd love to be convinced if you could explain.

    My thinking here is that folding, while weak, doesn't risk more of my chips. Flatting let's my opponent see a flop. If the board comes with an Ace or a straight/flush draw heavy board, I have a difficult time to know where I'm at. Remembering that he has the chips to almost certainly C-bet here. I also set myself up to be set-mined on a middle/low pair. Folding post flop costs me that extra 400 chips that I flatted with.

    If my thinking here is faulty, please correct me.
    You have Kings. You realise that's the 2nd best starting hand in poker? Why are you so scared of playing it? Why are you talking like seeing a flop with KINGS is a big thing?
  10. #10
    Some further consideration. You mentioned 3bet / folding but 3bet / fold with any hand here is a bad move. You're investing at least 40% of your stack when you 3bet.

    I'd be interested to hear your raising range in this spot. I'd be fine with raising 66 here.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
    You have Kings. You realise that's the 2nd best starting hand in poker? Why are you so scared of playing it? Why are you talking like seeing a flop with KINGS is a big thing?
    I was afraid I'd get misunderstood with this question. In retrospect, I wish I hadn't of said it was a "tough spot". It really wasn't, it was a clear shove to me. And that's what I did. It was also my last hand of the game.

    I realize I was just unlucky here. I got it in a slight favourite, I was simply outdrawn.. that happens. But my range for him was spot on, I suspected he had a monster too and that I was going to be flipping. I flipped and lost.

    I was mostly looking to see if anyone else would have played it differently. I don't regret the way I played that hand really, but the fact that folding would have led me to continue got stuck in my head a little so I wanted to get the opinion of some of you is all.

    The fact that I had KK wasn't my sticking point. My concern came down to stack sizes really. I didn't feel like my opponent here would be messing with me from the SB for 200 chips. So I didn't think I had much in the way of fold equity in this spot.

    I was never scared to get the chips in, I'm just questioning if it was the right call in this specific situation. I realize I would have won this hand 7 times of 10. So it's profitable long term.

    Thanks everybody.
  12. #12
    What hand flips with KK?

    You're either ahead of everything, or behind AA.
  13. #13
    you're a little results oriented on this one that's all. GG wp, you played the hand fine.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    What hand flips with KK?

    You're either ahead of everything, or behind AA.
    I pointed out that I would have won 7 times of 10. But it's still a flip, 7 of 10 is far from certain..

    I think getting it in with a smaller stack here is a no-brainer. But I think it's healthy to pause and question before risking your tournament life.
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Luco View Post
    you're a little results oriented on this one that's all. GG wp, you played the hand fine.
    Thank you.
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by derekeverett View Post
    I pointed out that I would have won 7 times of 10. But it's still a flip, 7 of 10 is far from certain..

    I think getting it in with a smaller stack here is a no-brainer. But I think it's healthy to pause and question before risking your tournament life.
    No it's not, @both.
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by derekeverett View Post
    I pointed out that I would have won 7 times of 10. But it's still a flip, 7 of 10 is far from certain..

    I think getting it in with a smaller stack here is a no-brainer. But I think it's healthy to pause and question before risking your tournament life.
    I only use the word 'flip' when it's closer than 55/45.

    A 70/30 in tournaments is just about as good as it gets. It would be unwise to pass up on these spots at any stage in the SnG, be it early, mid, bubble... Even with 60/40 or 55/45 you should mostly be playing these edges when they come.

    Yes it's healthy to pause when risking your tournament life, but 'in order to live you must be willing to die', so focus on getting your money in good and let the cards fall where they may.
    Congratulations, you've won your dick's weight in sweets! Decode the message in the above post to find out how to claim your tic-tac
  18. #18
    Flip = coin flip = 50/50 (heads or tails)

    7/10 = fist pump = massive edge
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Luco View Post
    I only use the word 'flip' when it's closer than 55/45.

    A 70/30 in tournaments is just about as good as it gets. It would be unwise to pass up on these spots at any stage in the SnG, be it early, mid, bubble... Even with 60/40 or 55/45 you should mostly be playing these edges when they come.

    Yes it's healthy to pause when risking your tournament life, but 'in order to live you must be willing to die', so focus on getting your money in good and let the cards fall where they may.
    That's pretty much the attitude I have had in these situations.. just needed the reinforcement. So thanks.
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
    Flip = coin flip = 50/50 (heads or tails)

    7/10 = fist pump = massive edge
    Would you have folded here is my hand had of been 55 or AQs? Given the stack sizes etc...
  21. #21
    55 is a fold, AQs is a shove (assuming no reads).

    I think, that may not be right. 55 might be a shove too, but I don't think it is. Depends how much fold equity you're getting in reality though.
  22. #22
    Sykedupp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekeverett View Post
    Would you have folded here is my hand had of been 55 or AQs? Given the stack sizes etc...
    Without taking ICM into consideration I would be shoving both 55 and AQs here. However I think given your position and the fact that this is a sng (so by default, its a "final table" and ICM needs to be considered as our position in the tournament matters alot more), 55 could be a fold.

    The tightest range I can think of here is something like 77+ AJs+ AQo+, and I personally also wouldnt fold AJo, KQs, 66 either.
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  23. #23
    Sykedupp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sykedupp View Post
    Without taking ICM into consideration I would be shoving both 55 and AQs here. However I think given your position and the fact that this is a sng (so by default, its a "final table" and ICM needs to be considered as our position in the tournament matters alot more), 55 could be a fold.

    The tightest range I can think of here is something like 77+ AJs+ AQo+, and I personally also wouldnt fold AJo, KQs, 66 either.
    See, this is why I dont play SNGs. I vastly underestimated the value of your stack.

    Running this in ICMizer, if the villian is raising 22+,A2s+,A7o+,KT+,QT+,JTs,T9s,98s , and calling our shove with 77+,A8s+,ATo+,KQs, we can only profitably shove a range of (4.7%) TT+,AQ+. I would never dream of folding 99 here but I would be making a (small) mistake to shove it, so it must be a fold.

    www.pokericmcalculator.com/icmizer/#mzbI
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  24. #24
    Sykedupp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sykedupp View Post
    See, this is why I dont play SNGs. I vastly underestimated the value of your stack.

    Running this in ICMizer, if the villian is raising 22+,A2s+,A7o+,KT+,QT+,JTs,T9s,98s , and calling our shove with 77+,A8s+,ATo+,KQs, we can only profitably shove a range of (4.7%) TT+,AQ+. I would never dream of folding 99 here but I would be making a (small) mistake to shove it, so it must be a fold.

    www.pokericmcalculator.com/icmizer/#mzbI
    Triple post FTW.

    Is this a 6max or a 9max SNG? If this is 9max then great, but if its 6max then my ICM calculation was wrong and we can actually shove more hands ((7.5%) 77+,ATs+,AJo+), which was pretty much the exact range I thought of originally.

    www.pokericmcalculator.com/icmizer/#iqKU
    Quote Originally Posted by soupie
    That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sykedupp View Post
    Running this in ICMizer, if the villian is raising 22+,A2s+,A7o+,KT+,QT+,JTs,T9s,98s , and calling our shove with 77+,A8s+,ATo+,KQs, we can only profitably shove a range of (4.7%) TT+,AQ+. I would never dream of folding 99 here but I would be making a (small) mistake to shove it, so it must be a fold.

    www.pokericmcalculator.com/icmizer/#mzbI
    This is interesting. 9 man sng.
  26. #26
    i think with the effective stack sizes all you can do is shove it in

    if you were way deeper then think you could get fancy

    or if the next hand somebody was going to get blinded out and burst the bubble -you could fold
  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by derekeverett View Post
    I'm on a Mac so Pokerstove isn't an option for me. I have used equity calculators often though, and I understand the point you're making.
    Have you tried Equilab? It's what I use, and I actually think it's much better than Pokerstove. Don't know if it works on Macs, but it's worth a shot since it's also a free program.
  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by derekeverett View Post
    The fact that I had KK wasn't my sticking point. My concern came down to stack sizes really. I didn't feel like my opponent here would be messing with me from the SB for 200 chips. So I didn't think I had much in the way of fold equity in this spot.
    So you're 5 handed in a sng. YOU are the CL with 5.5k chips, there is another big stack with 3k and everyone else has 1.5k.
    Blinds are 150/300. Who do you want to be aggressive with? The big stack who sees 3 smaller stacks than him, or the small stacks that have 5bbs and will be obligated to put the money in, hence calling ur shoves much wider?
    You want to have the bigger stack on your left so you can shove on him all day long.
    Ex: He will fold A2o to your sb shove, however one of the smaller stacks will have to call.
  29. #29
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    seems like you're reading a different handhistory than the one that's been posted here (HE IS IN BB.. on 15bb's, blinds 100/200 with KK, facing a min-raise from CL who is in SB).
    = easiest shove ever!
  30. #30
    You're so smart. I was clearly giving an hypothetical example
  31. #31
    a raise or shove could make him fold, 900 chips to your stack. a call means a flip up against a A-10 J Q K OR A LOWER PAIR. AA could be slow playing with small raise. if your not aggresive in this position, your not going to get the cash.

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