Odd Comments

Was playing in a $2 SNG on FTP this weekend, early in the tourney one of the players went all in against someone who had slightly less chips than he did and lost, leaving him down to around 60 chips. The blinds are 15/30 at this point, as I said really early in the tourney.

So next hand I get a marginal set of cards, the player with 60 chips is the button. I am in MP. I call the BB and the button goes all in. Now I'm not worried about him much, he was probably all-in on tilt. The BB calls him and I call as well. The flop helps me out... so I figure I'm in good shape. BB checks, so I bet into him since we are side potting now, betting 1/2 pot of 90 chips, working on getting him out or proving he has a hand. He immediately types at something like...

"WTF... dude is on a knockout bet, why are you betting against ME?"

I ignore him, he calls. So in my mind, he wants to just be the one who knocks out the other player, even though this is not a knockout SNG. Turn actually gives me two pair, so I bet again after he checks... he starts insulting and getting mad, and other players join in... and he folds.

I guess my comment/question is, I don't care much about it, but thought it was interesting that people don't understand you are trying to win chips, win the pots you can... build your stack... and felt I was vindictive by trying to win... are these people getting their expectations from their friendly Saturday night games or what?

Guess this turned more into a comment thread rather than anything else... sorry if it was boring or obvious. Just lately the chat box has been incredibly insulting and kinda sad (I have learned to just read and laugh).

There is a certain point where this becomes an issue. Late in a tourney with someone AI and a couple other callers. It is courtesy to check all the way through the hand to give the best chance of knocking out the bubble player. BUT, this is only in certain spots and those are fairly obvious. This was not one of those cases. With a full table and the guy only in for 60 chips or whatever he becomes a non factor.

Now 4 players left, small stack goes AI with 600 chips and you and another person call and you both have big stacks, then this might be a check down situation. I guess you should know it when you see it. Your example was not a case where anybody should be checking down. It is really a bubble thing and usuallyinvolves people with marginal hands. If you have the nutz then it is still ok to bet in my mind. You just better beat the other guy or you will catch shit. LOL

These guys you were playing with were idiots.

Its called implicit collusion (i.e., not spoken, but understood), the fact he vocalised during the hand that you shouldnt be betting against him would actually make it explicit collusion is you went along.

As Deuce says though, its not worth it early on. Its only worth it when knocking the other player out is worth more than the chips you get from betting. Why do it at all?

Say, you call shorty on the bubble with QT and its 3way and theres a Q high flop so you bet and the other bigger stack folds, cards are flipped face up and shorty has K7 and a K hits on the river. If other bigger stack had a K higher than K7, or had bottom pair and might have hit 2 pair, or whatever, it would have been worthwhile not betting as getting ITM was worth the possible loss/minimising of chips. On the other hand, if you're fairly sure you have the best hand, just bet. Looked at another way, if the other bigger stack has a hand that can beat shorties hand and shorties hand can beat yours, he's probably calling any bets anyway.

FTP allows chat in SNGs while a player is all in? I know on UB that isn't allowed, and am pretty certain it isn't on Stars either. Just odd. But yeah the two other guys are exactly right. This one guy dropping this early on doesn't affect how the rest of the match will go. Not to mention your hand stands to be the best against a guy that is forced all in randomly like that, so why not bet it and try to get value out of the other guy? You should and you did. nh.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Its called implicit collusion (i.e., not spoken, but understood), the fact he vocalised during the hand that you shouldnt be betting against him would actually make it explicit collusion is you went along.

As Deuce says though, its not worth it early on. Its only worth it when knocking the other player out is worth more than the chips you get from betting. Why do it at all?

Say, you call shorty on the bubble with QT and its 3way and theres a Q high flop so you bet and the other bigger stack folds, cards are flipped face up and shorty has K7 and a K hits on the river. If other bigger stack had a K higher than K7, or had bottom pair and might have hit 2 pair, or whatever, it would have been worthwhile not betting as getting ITM was worth the possible loss/minimising of chips. On the other hand, if you're fairly sure you have the best hand, just bet. Looked at another way, if the other bigger stack has a hand that can beat shorties hand and shorties hand can beat yours, he's probably calling any bets anyway.

Thanks bjaust, but man those are some big words... "implicit collusion "

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

FTP allows chat in SNGs while a player is all in? .

Well, you know what... it is yes and no on this one.

They have been updating their software a lot. The first edition I had allowed it, then it didn't in the next revision, then it did, now it doesn't again (updated last night again). I think the general rule on FTP is that they don't allow it when a player is all in, to stop intimidation, but if the blinds put the player all in they do. But that might have changed... i don't know, but the chat seems to sometimes work when someone is all in, other times it doesn't.

Maybe it is just my machine... and maybe I should start trying to make it work to take advantage of it

if your the big stack and it is the bubble and a couple of people are trying to fold to money then I used to like keeping the tiny stack in even to fold to his BB. Keeping stealing the folders chips and by the time your in the money you have nearly all the chips and a pretty good shot at the real money 1st place.

Either way its poker and they can stfu.

My 2 cents

Tournaments are not about being friendly and cooperative, you should do whatever is in your best interest, if it is in your interest to knock a player out check it down, if it is in your best interest to bet to win the side pot or increase your chance of winning the main pot then bet.
If somone does not understand this and thinks every time someone is all in then everyone else has to check it down its their problem and not yours.

If I happen to flop a decent but volenarable hand at situations like this I bet it very often even if it is on the bubble, I will not bet it on the bubble if opponent has me covered and can easily put me all in

From what I've heard/seen, the general idea is that you generally only bet when someone is all in when you catch a hand. Basically the "unwritten code" is there's no bluffing in that hand. You can't take the risk because you'll have to show your hand anyway to win the side pot.

No, it is really a bubble and very specific condition. Early in a tourey there is no check down. Period. You may end up checking down but that because of a weak hand but not because you are suppose to. Anybody that expects a check down early doesn't understand poker all that well.

In a 4-way pot with one guy all in, if you bluff off two guys, you only need to beat one. This can be a good thing. Situation dependant. The more you feel you'd gain from maximising the chance shorty goes out, the more like you are to check it down. If anyone says different, sucks to be them. You're not playing to make them happy.

Thanks for the input guys, just wanted to be sure I wasn't being a prick.